40th Anniversary Cobra on Ebay - Page 7

Excaliber · #**121** (**permalink**) 05-08-2003, 06:55 PM

Dan,,,,,Well now,,,,,that sounds like a good deal shapeing up. I'd consider such a proposal myself, but of course don't have all the "details". Intersting, very interesting (and keep the stripe)!!

Ernie

REAL 1 · #**122** (**permalink**) 05-08-2003, 07:35 PM

Ernie: You sir are again on the mark!

Misfit41: Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Your opinion that the only Cobras made were between '65 and '67 is clearly based on emotion and I guess some misplaced notion that to acknowledge the new Shelbys as REAL Cobras dilutes the originals somehow. Thats fine. You are entitled to your opinion and I wouldn't dare try to change it.

Putting opinions aside the facts are clear and the REALity different. My MSO said "Shelby Cobra", my title says Shelby Cobra, SAAC says its an authentic Cobra, it has a legitmate CSX vin #, it was a product of SAI, its the only car legally entitled to wear the Cobra emblem and logo, its the only car entitled to be legally called and referred to as a Cobra (except for original Shelby's and AC Cobras), it looks like a Cobra, its specifications inside and out are identical to original Cobra specifications, it drives like a Cobra, sounds like a Cobra. That pretty much covers it. Guess it must be a Cobra.

Dan: Yes. Each CSX has its own distinguishing features. Much the same as Porsches. Each Porsche has its own distinguishing features in options. Very rare to see two Porsches exactly alike. But they still retain some fundamental elements that remain identical...Boby shape, chasis dimensions, engine (model to model). Some elemental things must reman identical for each to be a Porsche.

Same applies to the Cobras. My point is that while my car may have some different details than Allan's, Turk's, yours, Bill's or others there are clearly fundamental items that must remain the same as original spec such as basic body shape, chasis dimensions, pin drives and suspension (allowing for differences in springs used). Options may differ ie, guage arrangement, glove box, Smiths verses Shelby VDOs or personal perfomance mods like Webbers, superchargers etc..

Southernfried: Maybe the 289 prom queen turned into the 427 prono queen but "alls I knows is" which one gives most guys the "woody"..thats right... the porno queen.

misfit41 · #**123** (**permalink**) 05-08-2003, 09:43 PM

Your on the money Excaliber concerning the 289's,,I was thinking strictly 427's at the time,,second to my 30 year love affair for 427s {I had my first at 16}is my passion for a rough idleing,,lifter clacking,,wicked 289 hi po,,,and there really werent that many,,seems everyone who had a 289 4bbl in the 60's were hi pos,,but any one who ever heard one would know the difference,, only thing is,and I swear,,if I had any kind of cobra with a small block,I would ditch the 427 emblems and call it a 289,makes more sense to me,,
now I am going out on a BIG limb and saying the Shelby and chevy deal wasnt true,,but it is a myth,,I read this just a few days ago in the shelby registry,MIND YOU,it was late,,and maybe a couple beers,,I could have misinterpeted,it is at the office,,so I will reread,but the take I got was not to do with the cobras,
but a sports car Shelby was to design and supervise building for chevy,for unknown reasons chevy bailed out ,this was before cobra was a ethought of,,again,unless I was mistaken,as per shelby,,Cobra was a completely ford oriented brain child from the get go,,I dont want an argument on this,,i will recheck tomorrow and post,but I would recommend everyone here to have this book,it is in reprint again,,,sells to saac members for 135.00,,and used ones on ebay bring 300 to 400,,the info here is priceless,,and 100% accurate,,any one who isnt a saac member,,I would be glad to get the book for you,,no profit involved,
ok,,I LOVE the CSX4000 cars,,I WANT a CSX4000 car,,nuff said,,
I still dont see why it is 30k more than a Kirkham though,,hehe
thanks Guys,,good nite,,Tim

Excaliber · #**124** (**permalink**) 05-08-2003, 11:29 PM

I think your connection with Shelby and Chevy is accurate. C.S. had it in his mind in the 50's to "build a car" using the "small body" big engine principle. It was after his LeMans win (59) and his retirement from racing that kind of "gelled" the whole idea. Somehow I get the impression, Chevy pissed him off, maybe THEY wanted to run the show TO much?

Chevy was just another "deal" gone by the wayside on his road to "destiny". I bet there was a time he was thinking, BUICK (perhaps inspired by Ol Yeller)? Heck I bet he talked to a LOT of people, bouncing ideas around, what if's.........on his way to "destiny"! You can bet he didn't just wake up one morning and say, "I've got it"!!!!

Oh man,,,,what if: We were driving replica MGA's with solid axle rear ends and American Motor (RAMBLER) V-8's???? The HORROR!! LOL

Ernie

Turk · #**125** (**permalink**) 05-09-2003, 01:58 AM

This is not meant to discourage anyone from acquiring a Kirkham if you wanted a aluminum car, since that is all they build.

However I have read it in here and other posts many times.....Folks are having a hard time justifying $30-$40K for a Shelby over a Kirkham. i would too.

Before you perpetuate a myth, why not pick up the phone and call Bob Marsh and spec out a Shelby Cobra with options you want and see for yourself if the premium asked and paid for is anywhere near the myth we read in here.

You might be pleasantly surprised. For me the name Shelby had enough of a value attached to it to pay the premium I paid. Fortunately it is nowhere near the amount boradcast by many folks who have not done a direct comparison themselves. It is what they heard!

Whether you pay a $1.00 or $$10,001 dollars more for a Cobra bearing the name Shelby, do not be dissapointed that you are not necessarily getting a better car. No one can make that claim, nor should they. It is just that it is a Shelby Cobra, that's all.

At times I think my ERA was a better car. My firends know how I feel about an ERA. Yet I chose to buy a CSX without batting an eye. I did so, without having to pay $30,000 to $40,000 more.

TURK

Bill Kesner · #**126** (**permalink**) 05-09-2003, 02:42 AM

As for the Chevy myth........maybe Cal Metal or Ron can jump in with additional info.

I beleive Chevrolet did not want to deal with Carroll because they did not want their engine and Carroll's car competing against the all mighty Corvette. It wasn't that Chevrolet pissed Carroll off, it was probably the reverse. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

- Bill -

misfit41 · #**127** (**permalink**) 05-09-2003, 06:20 AM

I am sure your right about the Shelby cost,,actually I remember a couple of years ago when you could spec a car online,,it wasnt so bad for an incomplete car,,and I can see the sobra name plate is worth some extra,,has to be great to be ale to say ,,"it's actually a Shelby"
I need to reread the Shelby/Chevy ,but I remember it went so far as chevy had aleady shipped 2 car chassis which CS was working on,then he he received a 3am phone call from soemone saying "the 2 cars you have ,they never exsisted,you never saw them " and it was over,,I believe it was politic,,but I will ck it out today
My wife sure does like this forum,,she dosent have to hear my rantings any longer.
happy Hunting,,Tim
and oh yeah,I have an ERA Ambassador Garter Snake with a wicked 304,,hahaha

computerworks · #**128** (**permalink**) 05-09-2003, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Kesner

As for the Chevy myth........maybe Cal Metal or Ron can jump in with additional info.

I beleive Chevrolet did not want to deal with Carroll because they did not want their engine and Carroll's car competing against the all mighty Corvette. It wasn't that Chevrolet pissed Carroll off, it was probably the reverse. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

- Bill -

I don't think the Chevrolet part of the Cobra story had as much excitement and conflict as some think... plus, the actual time frame for the decision was really years apart.

In 1957, while Shelby was still active as a driver, he was cooking up the idea of a European-style sports car with American muscle.
He tried to interest General Motors in the project, but they had just set in place a long-term plan for the Corvette, so the timing was bad.
It wasn't until 1961, when Bristol Aero stopped making engines, that the AC chassis became the idea for the cars' chassis. When Shelby first contacted Hurlock at AC by letter, he is quoted as saying...
"...I didn't mention Ford specifically (as the engine supplier)...because what I had in mind was a Chevy engine, or a Buick aluminum engine, or something from Oldsmobile."

In July 1961, he met Dave Evans of Ford Corporate at an event and they became friends...and in a short time, Dave offered a couple of new 221 c.i. v-8's for free to try in the new chassis.

That's how the Ford decision was made....

Excaliber · #**129** (**permalink**) 05-09-2003, 09:38 AM

Ah HA!!! So he WAS considering a Buick! The little 215 cid Alum engine at the time was an interesting piece of work.

I recall the one production year the new Buick Grand National turbo'd V6 was FASTER than the Corvette in 0 to 60 time. It was something about the Vette automatic trans shifting right at 55 or so and that would MOMENTARILY delay the Vette just long enough for the Buick to post a better time 0-60. The Vette would win overtake the Buick shortly thereafter. BUT, the auto mags and the public take that 0-60 time pretty serious, and the botton line was,,,,,the Buick was faster.

GM had a cow over that! NO WAY any car in the fleet could be faster than the "mighty vette". Buick was ordered to "cool it" and come into line with the GM thinking process.

You think Carroll would have followed such orders? A C.S. and Chevy relationship would never have worked out in the long run.

Ernie

Gary Morris · #**130** (**permalink**) 05-09-2003, 11:55 AM

Ok "REAL" side oiler fans...according to an interview with Mike Lefevers in the June 98 issue of Ford Performance it states in regards to the oiling system "You will also note the existence of an oil runner the full length of the lifter valley. accordding to Lefevers, Shelby aluminum FE features a priority main oiling system instead of either the traditional SIDE OILER, or TOP OILER lubricating system common on FE's" Doesn't sound like it's a "REAL" side oiler to me....BUT I would still take one...until the Genesis one comes out as it is a "side oiler"

Just my .02
Gary
ERA 291 with a "Real" side oiler, LOL

REAL 1 · #**131** (**permalink**) 05-09-2003, 02:18 PM

I'm sooooo confused.

I thought the new Shelby Aluminum block was a sideoiler as explained by SPFfiredog.

Is it or is it not a side oiler?

Excaliber · #**132** (**permalink**) 05-09-2003, 05:42 PM

The term "side oiler" has been used so long to denote and specify a particular engine (the 427 SO) it has become synonomous to MOST "gear heads" to CLEARLY mean the old IRON FE 427 Side Oiling engines of yester year. As opposed to the CENTER OILER of the same vintage. There is a BIG difference in these TWO motors when used in a racing application. The SO being FAR superior to the CO.

EVEN IF the new Alum "side oilers" were exact copies of the iron blocks (AND THEY ARE NOT) to carelessly use the expression "side oiler" will inevitably lead to confusion on the matter.

Therefore, I WOULD NOT call a new Alloy 427 block a "side oiler" WITHOUT qualification so as NOT to confuse it with the legendary IRON FE block of old.

So the new Alloy 427 oil galleries are on the "side". The whole "lay out" and "plumbing" of these new "side oil" galleries are FAR superior to what the IRON FE's had!

So when you say "side oiler" to me, the FIRST thing that will pop into MY mind will be an IRON FE. So "qualify" your statement first please! I would hate to think your trying to MIS LEAD me into believing you have the "real deal" under your hood, when in fact you have the "new and improved" version. Like the difference between a 1966 CSX Cobra and a 2002 CSX Cobra. Same thing,,,,,but not "exactly" the same thing!

Ernie

Allan A · #**133** (**permalink**) 05-09-2003, 05:48 PM

Ernie,

You are getting better everyday, this is great. If I read between the lines you are saying any of the 4000 CSX cars that have the old boat weight SO motors are BASTARD cars, and will not have the same position in history as the Alum/Alum cars.

PatBuckley · #**134** (**permalink**) 05-09-2003, 06:07 PM

I see Ernie also learned to use the CAP feature to emphasize his points.

Or is he just making FUN of Gary?

Dan Semko · #**135** (**permalink**) 05-09-2003, 06:23 PM

LNP,
You are in rare form! Absolutely hysterical.

REAL 1 · #**136** (**permalink**) 05-09-2003, 07:26 PM

Allan A:

Old boat weight SO motors???

And will not have the same position in history as alum/alum cars???

Your kidding right???

You are a scream!

The new aluminum blocks are beautiful pieces. Don't get me wrong. But they ain't FE427SO's. They are not made to the same specs and don't oil the same way.

Shelby Cobras never used aluminum block motors. The new Shelby Cobra which is built to exact '65 specs does not leave SAI equipped with an aluminum block motor. SAI sells the motor block and various pieces separate from the car. In fact some ERA owners have bought the Shelby block for use in their car. It can be placed in any Cobra or replica Cobra that can accept an FE427.

Choice of drive train is left 100% up to the owner. Some even put 5 speeds and automatics, 428s etc..

If you want to power your new Shelby Cobra with his new aluminum 427 thats a good choice. You can argue that this is his new Cobra and this is his new engine. REAL Cobra built to exact '65 specs except powered by imitation 427SO.

If you want to power your new Shelby Cobra with the same engine he historically powered them with thats a better choice IMHO. You can argue this is his continuation Cobra built to his exact '65 specs and this the original engine that powered these '65 spec Cobras. REAL Cobra powered by REAL 427. In short a '65 427SC Cobra built today so that it is "brought back to life exactly as it was." Thats what I'm talk'n about!

BTW: I hope you are using his aluminum heads and valve train or it won't be complete and will have less value.

PatBuckley: I forgot to thank you for the compliment. There is no doubt the girls would pick me for the ride. I am a handsome devil

misfit41 · #**137** (**permalink**) 05-09-2003, 08:19 PM

I'm little scared of this guy :} hehe
I am glad you said that,,I couldnt find the words ,and I have been good at starting arguments lately,,so I was just waiting for the right way to say it,,but you did it for me.
This is a wonderful block,,it does oil from the side,,but as you said,,very "improved".my 427 guru friend has 2,,and he went over the whole deal with me.
Only thing else is,,I think we all over rate the side oiler versus the ce,this was developed for high speed,high banked racing,at constant high rev's,for what all of us use it for,,I think it is just a cool buzz word,,Like I have a low number Colt SAA.In a normal street,or drag car,,it isnt a factor,,think about it,,390's,406's428"s ,and all the other non fe motors,,NONE of them have this design,,,I say FE's rule,,
and damn,,why do I ramble so ?Thanks Ernie
smoke em if you got em,,Tim

Dan Semko · #**138** (**permalink**) 05-09-2003, 08:27 PM

REALITY check Evan....maybe I missed the history lesson but when exactly did Shelby have Kimmons and Kirkhams manufacture those "original" cobras? Arguing a real 427 side oiler in a "continuation Shelby" is similar to arguing if Mary was a virgin when she had Christ!

Allan A · #**139** (**permalink**) 05-09-2003, 10:09 PM

Real1,

I would just like to point our one important fact that you have overlooked. My motor has a CSX number does yours............

Pat,

He will not win the beauty contest. If you noticed I did not say we were in the cars when we asked the young ladies. I would be willing to take the same test with you and I will make sure to let the ladies know that you are sitting on a phone book.
LMAO, sorry I have had a few drinks.

Allan

Excaliber · #**140** (**permalink**) 05-09-2003, 10:21 PM

For the "new" cars either engine, alloy or iron is a good choice and I think fits well. Now for those who are "picky" about "details" (and I can appreciate that) you "really" need to use an iron block. As far as "re-sale" goes, I think it might be a tough call which one may or may not "bring more" on the market.

But what if a guy has a 1966 CSX car? Is it "OK" to use an alloy block in THAT car? I don't have a problem with that,,,,,but I think "re-sale" value WILL suffer. Somehow,,,,it just doesn't "feel right".

Ernie