Other driver charged in Mark's death.

[Roscoe]

No matter what happens to the other driver it does not make this guy any less dead.

Roscoe

[Tongue Pirate]

Unless they can prove that the guy purposely ran his car into the cobra(why would anyone do that? They wouldn't!!!) he should only be written a ticket for racing related offenses. I'm sure the guy feels bad & wished it hadn't happened.

[scottj]

TP

Iowa law seems pretty clear-

vehicular homicide section 707.6A(2)(a) UNINTENTIONALLY causing the death of another by driving a motor vehicle in a reckless manner with willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property, a class “C” felony

[flipper35]

Tongue Pirate, not everyone is a gentleman. If you think people won't swerve to slow or wreck someone, you are sadly mistaken.

[SSS]

Originally posted by SilverCobra

It is really sad that Mark lost his life over street racing. One thing that was really curious to me was that the driver with roll bar died of neck injuries and the passenger (no roll bar) had minor injuries. I would have expected injuries/death to be the other way around. I guess that there is no way to make predictions on injury/mortality when a car is rolling over and over at high speed.

I am waiting for a turnkey roadster to be built for me. I have put a lot of thought into rollbars and seatbelts and high-back seats. You will probably be surprised by the choices I have made. I suppose this qualifies me to be a "f'n waxer", but I want a strictly street car. I have no desire at all to track a car. I've never participated in a formal street race, but I have had impromptu short bouts similar to what Mr. Doherty was involved in. I was fortunate enough to not injure myself or anyone else, and I also didn't have anywhere near the horsepower a Cobra has.

That was a long time ago, and I know I won't do anything like that again. In case you think a Cobra would change my mind, I've recently owned two C5s, and I always ignored the punks who wanted to race with me. Still, my roadster will have a similar power to weight ratio that my C5s had, with no traction control and a shorter wheelbase, and I know I don't have to be too stupid to lose control of it. So, the question is, how do I protect myself?

As Mr. Doherty has unfortunately proved, a rollbar and 5-point harness does not guarantee your protection at high speed in a Cobra. In a rollover it's most certainly better to have them, but even with a helmet there's no guarantee. I don't think many of us use a helmet on the street. A Cobra is an inherently unsafe car, but it seems the most safe arrangement you could have is double or full-width roll bars, high-back seats, and 5-point restraints.

You might be surprised to hear that I have only chosen one of the three. My primary motivation is looks, and a Cobra with double roll bars and high-back seats looks like a phone booth to me. I have chosen to have no roll bar, and regular low-back seats. You might think I'm crazy, but I think having no roll bar will be a constant reminder to me to be careful. I think most people put too much faith in their roll bar and believe they are indestructible when they have it.

I am more concerned about neck and facial injuries than rollovers, since I will not race the car, and my primary worry is soccer moms in Suburbans. Also, it seems to me it's quite possible to strike your head on the rollbar in a collision. I will have 5-point restraints for the simple utility of keeping mine and my passenger's body firmly in the seat, so a frontal collision would not send us into the windshield. Other than making sure I keep the car shiny-side-up, my other concern is whiplash injury since I will not have neck protection.

I'm sorry if anyone finds this post inappropriate, but I have given this a lot of thought before considering actual examples of what can happen to us. Usually we don't want to think about these things, but the truth is we should never forget.

[SSS]

Originally posted by Tongue Pirate

Unless they can prove that the guy purposely ran his car into the cobra(why would anyone do that? They wouldn't!!!) he should only be written a ticket for racing related offenses. I'm sure the guy feels bad & wished it hadn't happened.

How exactly can the prosecution prove that the collision was not accidental? The only way I can think of is if the other guy admits it. No matter what the verdict is, both of them are guilty and one has already paid the greatest price.

My condolences to Debbie and family.

[Mystical Desire]

Originally posted by SSS


I am waiting for a turnkey roadster to be built for me. I have put a lot of thought into rollbars and seatbelts and high-back seats. You will probably be surprised by the choices I have made. I suppose this qualifies me to be a "f'n waxer", but I want a strictly street car. I have no desire at all to track a car. I've never participated in a formal street race, but I have had impromptu short bouts similar to what Mr. Doherty was involved in. I was fortunate enough to not injure myself or anyone else, and I also didn't have anywhere near the horsepower a Cobra has.

That was a long time ago, and I know I won't do anything like that again. In case you think a Cobra would change my mind, I've recently owned two C5s, and I always ignored the punks who wanted to race with me. Still, my roadster will have a similar power to weight ratio that my C5s had, with no traction control and a shorter wheelbase, and I know I don't have to be too stupid to lose control of it. So, the question is, how do I protect myself?

As Mr. Doherty has unfortunately proved, a rollbar and 5-point harness does not guarantee your protection at high speed in a Cobra. In a rollover it's most certainly better to have them, but even with a helmet there's no guarantee. I don't think many of us use a helmet on the street. A Cobra is an inherently unsafe car, but it seems the most safe arrangement you could have is double or full-width roll bars, high-back seats, and 5-point restraints.

You might be surprised to hear that I have only chosen one of the three. My primary motivation is looks, and a Cobra with double roll bars and high-back seats looks like a phone booth to me. I have chosen to have no roll bar, and regular low-back seats. You might think I'm crazy, but I think having no roll bar will be a constant reminder to me to be careful. I think most people put too much faith in their roll bar and believe they are indestructible when they have it.

I am more concerned about neck and facial injuries than rollovers, since I will not race the car, and my primary worry is soccer moms in Suburbans. Also, it seems to me it's quite possible to strike your head on the rollbar in a collision. I will have 5-point restraints for the simple utility of keeping mine and my passenger's body firmly in the seat, so a frontal collision would not send us into the windshield. Other than making sure I keep the car shiny-side-up, my other concern is whiplash injury since I will not have neck protection.

I'm sorry if anyone finds this post inappropriate, but I have given this a lot of thought before considering actual examples of what can happen to us. Usually we don't want to think about these things, but the truth is we should never forget.

I don't wish to be morbid here or anything.. but while everyone is talking about safety devices and injuries that can occur, I will let everyone know just what the extent of Mark's injuries were. There were alot more than the broken neck that was the cause of death. He had broken ribs, broken neck, severed vertebrae or spinal cord (unsure if they are the same thing - or which one it was).. massive facial injuries - very deep lacerations and his chin was demolished. Some were probably caused from the seatbelt, others from the first impact of when the car was rolling?? unsure, most people thought because of damage to the car that it had mid air rolls.. I'm assuming the chin is from this, ribs from seatbelt.

[Tongue Pirate]

That's a bummer! Guess the law isn't going to be on his side then!

I know most of us have done it & in hindsight realize that racing on the street wasn't the smartest of ideas. It is unfortunate that it takes accidents like these to sober us up to that fact.

[Mystical Desire]

Originally posted by Tongue Pirate


Unless they can prove that the guy purposely ran his car into the cobra(why would anyone do that? They wouldn't!!!) he should only be written a ticket for racing related offenses. I'm sure the guy feels bad & wished it hadn't happened.

This other driver left the place they were at, pissed at Mark. Witness saw him take off after Mark driving "erratically." Something had been said between the two of them earlier.

There are all kinds of people in this world.. Serial killers, psycho's, child molesters... you name it, they are out there.. So there is no reason that someone wouldn't intentionally do this.. Now I am not saying he did.. I am just saying that "yes" some people would intentionally do something like this if they were hotheaded and not think a thing about it..

Again.. I am NOT saying it was intentional.. just trying to point out that some people would intentionally do things like that.. It happens all the time. Even in our town.. there has been deaths by ex lovers etc.. fighting and intentionally smashing or running into the other persons vehicle.

[SSS]

Originally posted by Mystical Desire

I don't wish to be morbid here or anything.. but while everyone is talking about safety devices and injuries that can occur, I will let everyone know just what the extent of Mark's injuries were. There were alot more than the broken neck that was the cause of death. He had broken ribs, broken neck, severed vertebrae or spinal cord (unsure if they are the same thing - or which one it was).. massive facial injuries - very deep lacerations and his chin was demolished. Some were probably caused from the seatbelt, others from the first impact of when the car was rolling?? unsure, most people thought because of damage to the car that it had mid air rolls.. I'm assuming the chin is from this, ribs from seatbelt.

Wow Debbie you are really brave to be so open about this. I agree with those who say it's inconsiderate to talk about the mistake of someone who just died. But, I think that discussing this is beneficial to the rest of us. Maybe those of us that just have to learn things the hard way will pay attention and not make the same mistake. I don't think anybody is saying "I told you so". They're saying "don't you be the next". At least something good could come from this.

Thankfully the passenger is okay. It's amazing that she apparently slipped out of her harness, and equally amazing she was not seriously injured after that. My cousin was in a car accident and was thrown from the vehicle. He was told that if he had remained in the vehicle he would have died. Now he refuses to wear a seatbelt at all. No one can convince him otherwise, no matter what statistic we present.

The injuries you describe certainly prove that you'd need a lot of luck in addition to a rollbar to survive a rollover. I have heard of people surviving rollovers, but only with a helmet. Even a helmet might not have been enough to save Mark. We should do everything we can to keep the posing on the street and the racing on the track.

[stale_face]

SSS,

Interesting discussion on safety. I also have car a car being built right now. But it will have a full width roll bar that is higher than the top of my head, and seats with seat backs that go up to and including head support. I am probably in the minority, but those little boat seats that shelby started using in 1962, the ones that only come up to the middle of your back, just creep me out. To each his own, but I pull no punches when it comes to safety.

[Bart Carter]

Originally posted by SSS How exactly can the prosecution prove that the collision was not accidental? The only way I can think of is if the other guy admits it.....

What about the passenger/survivor/witness?

[Excaliber]

Note the height of the roll bars on JBL's. For "safety" reasons the bar is supposed to be several inches above your head. Seat belts, no matter how tight, will "stretch" to some degree.

Debbie the injurys you describe for Mark are profound. Especially when you consider the relatively "light" damage on the car. Very troubling indeed to think a "typical" roll bar and NASCAR style belts offer such little protection.

Gentleman and ladies, we are driving a four wheel motorcycle. Expect no protection beyond that unless your building a roll cage. Which, in my opinion, just ruins the "look" and "feel" of the Cobra. If your seriously racing, then that is something you NEED to do!

Also, I am left with impression that this so called "street race" may not have been all that "serious" to Mark. It could have been as simple as a short burst of speed (a couple of gear changes?), followed immediatly by the thought, "What the hell am I doing"? He was stopping for the light, as I undestand it. He could have momentarily had a "lapse" of good judgement and just as suddenly realized this was a big mistake. Alas,,,,to late.

Sounds a LOT like something I (or YOU) could get caught up in if conditions were "right". I'll just "punch" it through a couple of gears and then back off, not really a "race", just playing around a little. I'll stop for the lights of course, after all I'm a safe driver,,,,,,,,,,,and I bet Mark WAS a safe driver. At 39, he was no kid, he never figured it would happen the way it did, in the blink of an eye.

,,,,,,,,,,think about it, could have been you, could have been me on the wrong night in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Ernie

[SSS]

Originally posted by stale_face

Interesting discussion on safety. I also have car a car being built right now. But it will have a full width roll bar that is higher than the top of my head, and seats with seat backs that go up to and including head support. I am probably in the minority, but those little boat seats that shelby started using in 1962, the ones that only come up to the middle of your back, just creep me out. To each his own, but I pull no punches when it comes to safety.

You've got all the bases covered, David. I am taking the risk of choosing the street car look at the expense of safety. I'll have well under 300hp, but that's still enough to get the car upside-down if I get crazy. I'm planning on enjoying brisk accelleration in a straight line, but that's it. No triple-digit velocities or high-speed manouvers. My prime worry is having no neck protection in a low-speed collision. With nothing protecting my head, I won't be able to forget to be careful.

[SSS]

Originally posted by Bart Carter

What about the passenger/survivor/witness?

Good point.

[stale_face]

SSS,

Best of luck. We ALL need to be careful.


Enjoy!

[FranticFrank]

Well, Debbie,
The lawers came to see me to substansiate the possabilty that the Cobra replica was flawed, the operater was incapacitated and it was all, Marks fault. Bull. Mark most likely got tagged (his LF to McCarty's RR) while just off the throttle and his car was still lunging and (turned the wheel to the right) in an instant (as to decelerate) chose Madison east. Why not, he'd won the "race". Marks car hopped the front axle (under braking), and when he let off the brake, Whammo, turned into the curb, resulting in becoming air borne. Just my impression of the facts, as the lawyers laid them out. The real question is,,,Did McCarty tag Mark? Is Dales' responsable for "unauthorized mods" on McCarty's car?.......Will any amount of $ change a freekin' thing? Isn't it about time we put every racer in a fire suit and on a sanctioned track? NO MORE STREET RACING, PERIOD, PARAGRAPH. ........Frantic Frank.???

[mrmustang]

I have to ask why your posting here when the last post was dated MAY 19th, 2003. Are you looking to stir the pot some more????


Bill S.

[rdorman]

Some items:

Tragic death. But I am not surprised in a Cobra. Safety has come a long way in fourty years.

Cobra seats, horrible from a safety standpoint.

A wind screen that I can destroy with my bare hands just waiting to cut loose. Four little screws.

Five point harness, great if mounted correctly. Other wise it can and will contribute to injury. They DO stretch. More than you might think.

The seats and or the belt could have very well CAUSED the spinal injuries.

Roll bars, watch some of the crash tests, you would be amazed at how far a body will move, even with proper seats and belts. Head injuries.

A general thress hold for neck injury is about 40 G's or only a 50 MPH head on (high back seats and airbags, hello!).

These cars are four wheel motorcylces, some ways maybe even worse. Driving one is a risk that is elevated beyond your Windstar. Racing one is far more risky than a modern race car.

Lets be careful out there!

Rick

[LateApex]

Why doesn't someone close this thread. Frank, what a jerk for posting to a 4 month old thread with a subject such as this. Unless you are a certified accident investigator, keep your drivel to yourself.