Factory 5 buying SAI

[Jim Colman]

Yes, the rumor is true. Whether or not the deal is consumated remains to be seen.

Cheers
Jim

[TAZ]

Originally posted by REAL 1


Why wouldn't you call a new Indian Chief a "genuine Indian Chief" You must have something against reality. Its not an original Indian Chief but how on earth could it not be a REAL Indian Chief???? You gotta explain this. . Whats the problem with ackknowledging the fact that the guy who always wanted an Indian Chief and can't afford the original vintage bike or can't find one and now has the money to pony up the $26K for the new Chief has a new genuine Indian Chief made and sold by Indian. I have no problem with it. He isn't trying to pass it off as an original.

I said I'd call todays Indian Chief an Indian Chief, but I would not call it a "genuine Indian Chief" as it implies that it's the same Indian Chief that they stopped production on in 1953. It's a completely different bike, but harkens to the days of old. I'd love to have one.

The new GT 40 is a Genuine Ford GT. The successor to the original GT 40. Is it original. No. Is it a genuine Ford GT. How can it not be????

You don't seem to get your own implication of "genuine Cobra" you stated it as a continuation of the existing CSX series. That's what I have a problem with.

Are you suggesting I don't love Cobras and Cobra replicas? Why else would I hang out here on this club and deal with what I put up with?

I don't insult nor do I intend to insult FFRs. In fact as stated before I like them. Their new MKI chasis is really nice. My problem is that everyone thinks I'm elitest and CSX owners are elitest because we defend what our cars are. Genuine Cobras. Not original but continuation Cobras. No one is trying to pass the Continuation Cobras off as originals because they ain't.

FFR guys are sensative about the perception that there cars are at the bottom of the pecking order. You dispute that and don't like that perception. In fact if I came up to a FFR owner and said your car was a piece of $hit because its a FFR they probably wouldn't like it. In fact I would and never have said that about FFRs. Fact is I don't think that at all.

Is that why you made the remark Boy. The FFR groupies can only hope!

Finally, a chance to own a Shelby or something close!

Boy the FFR groupes are going nuts over the prospect and its only a rumor. Kinda exposes what the FFR boys would rather have.

Hysterical. Just hysterical.

Well, what makes you think knocking a CSX as a "fake snake" is not just as insulting to a CSX owner and an intentional effort to degrade what someone else has? Ever look at from that angle? CSX owners have been called names and ridiculed as suckers, pigeons etc.. Why becasue were told we overpaid for fakey doos. I don't get upset with these knocks. I'll just keep pointing to the facts. That doesn't make me an elitest. That causes me to be accused of being an elitest by those that wish to trash the truth and denigrate the facts for their own motives. I'll just keep being an elitest everytime someone smears my CSX.

Actually I implied it as a "Real Fake Snake" and that I have a "Fake Fake Snake"

Mutual respect is the answer.

I would have never made the insult, and yes it was intentially an insult if I was not insulted to begin with. It is the elitest attitude you put forward in your comments that pissed me off to the point of posting the reply that I did. If you don't recall here's the response again Real Fake 1,

Thanks for the laugh. I think it's too funny how you as someone that has purchased a Real Fake Snake, as oppose to someone like me who's built/building a Fake Fake Snake, is so superficial as too need to suggest that we the "FFR groupes" are going nuts over the prospect of FFR buying SAI.

Most of us think it's an utterly obsurd suggestion as there's absolutely no finacial basis for something like this to even occur.

Have some fun driving your Real Fake Snake that you had produced.

I know I'll have fun driving my Fake Fake Snake that I built.

TAZ

Out of the 3 years posting on Cobra Related forums (mainly FFCobra.com and Cobraforum.com) you're only the second person I've insulted. The first of course being MEAT

TAZ

[BANDIT 1]

A "new" CSX Shelby 427 S/C Cobra is a "real" Cobra, period.

A "new" CSX Shelby 427 S/C Cobra is not a "original" Cobra, period.

What is the problem?

The new Mustangs are going to look very much like 1960's Mustangs, does that make them a "replica"?

When they started making "new" Pantera's in the 1980's (early 1990's?), were they "replica's" or "real" Pantera's?

[Excaliber]

It takes more than just a name to establish a "heritage".

The most pornounced mis-use of a name I can think of is:

60-70's Pontiac LeMans, the original car was cool.

90's LeMans "re-do". That 3 cylinder piece of (well you know what), import re-badged Pontiac. Disgusting!

Ernie

Edit: I see I miss spelled "pronounced",,,,,,was going to change it, but I think it's more "correct" spelled the way it is.

[REAL 1]

Taz: Ok. Your right. My comments were a little out of line. I was just getting a little ticked at all the scarcastic comments on this thread.

I apologize. When I'm out of line I will admit it. Sorry. I really do not wish to insult anyone.

I wish to state that FFRs can be built to be very nice cars. I myself would like a spec racer. I'm sure many guys have chosen FFRs eventhough they could have spent more on something else because a FFR was their choice for their own reaons, whether weight, chasis design etc...

Sometimes I just crack (very rarely though) under the pressure and resort to the "oh yeah! syndrome".

"Genuine" is "being of true origin or proceeding from the author or source. " It can also mean "proceeding from the the original stock or source." So yes, Genuine can have two meanings or usages. Clearly the CSX Continuations fit within one of the common usages. As Edley pointed out, most non "Cobra" people may not be aware of the Continuation series. So when they ask "Is it REAL" they are clearly refering to the original. They are then entitled to a truthful answer which is "Yes, it is a REAL Cobra, but the new Continuation series Cobra now being produced by Shelby American." Its that easy. I can tell you without exception the amazment and excitement people then express at seeing a new '65 spec Cobra from Shelby American.

So in the end you can call my car a fake snake. I know what it is, myopia and all. So does SAAC.

If it turns out FFR does buy SAI it still won't change what the car is. FFR would also be foolish to change the CSX and its status. It would be truly sad to make extinct again what SAI brought back to life.

Bandit 1 stated it correctly. Its just that simple. Whats the problem?

[Jason Lee Nye]

The cool thing is the passion we express. Do we love these cars or what!!!!!


As far as the FFR being a rebodied Mustang??????? What American parts did Shelby use in his Cobras? What Ford parts? Was the Cobra built from the ground up or did it come to be from various auto parts??????? Does not a FFR a racecar that incorporates Ford and English made parts?

A FFR will never be a Shelby Cobra, it is a Factory 5 and a well designed or better designed racecar at that and that cannot be disputed by the results on the tracks and the numbers it puts down. When I look at my Factory 5, I see a designer who took the Shelby Cobra and improved it and in its own right is its own racecar. Evolution if you will.

Yes Real 1 you have a Genuine Shelby made car that Ford allows Shelby to stamp Cobra onto. I think your car will hold more value than any other Cobra or replica out there because Shelby made it. There is a cool factor that comes along with that and I am sure it must be a blast to drive. However I hate to disappoint you and advise you that I am not a FFR groupie nor do I envy you. I do envy Hersh though, he has one damn nice Roaring 40!!!!!!!

Hey the guy putting a VW engine in a Cobra replica, is his a rebodied VW?

[REAL 1]

I wonder if there could be a comparison between the FFR spec racer and an equally preped Shelby spec racer. SB v. SB. BB v. BB.

I would be very interested to see the results. Same independent driver. That should indicate which car is capable of faster lap times.

[TAZ]

Real 1,

Thanks for the apology, and I apologize in turn. The CSX 4000 series is a very nice Reproduction of the Original Series.

I still have personal opinions regarding the implications of it being called a "genuine Cobra" but that may be do to a combination of myopia caused from going crosseyed with what CS and his BS lawsuits stirred up the last couple of years.

Cheers and have fun driving your Snake.

TAZ

[Bart Carter]

Originally posted by REAL 1 I wonder if there could be a comparison between the FFR spec racer and an equally preped Shelby spec racer. SB v. SB. BB v. BB.

I would be very interested to see the results. Same independent driver. That should indicate which car is capable of faster lap times.

The FFR spec racer is designed, like the Miata spec racer, to use factory output engines, etc. They are very limited as to modifications. They do use standard drivetrains. This allows many people to enjoy competitive racing at a cost point.

The Shelbys are at a different price point. You can hardly compare a 400 HP Shelby to a 225 HP 302, etc. The Shelby would be closer compared to a Panoz spec car.

A closer comparison would be a JBL or Levy Racing car with comparable components.

[Jason Lee Nye]

Originally posted by REAL 1


I wonder if there could be a comparison between the FFR spec racer and an equally preped Shelby spec racer. SB v. SB. BB v. BB.

I would be very interested to see the results. Same independent driver. That should indicate which car is capable of faster lap times.

There is a Run & Gun, it would be interesting. I would be surprised to see if SAI would rise up to such a challenge, after all to compete and run with the replicas would imply they are a replica.

I nominate Dick Smith to be the driver!

It would be a good thing if Kit Kar Mag hosted the challenge for a day and the same driver would run the cars through the different courses and tests. Each manufacturer would get an invitation. Big block class and small block class. It would be a put up or shut up event for all manufacturers to be involved in. They get the title for a year until the next challenge.

[Robert Duncan]

I just had to get into this most historic rambling post.

BTW, my FFR has a REAL thin wall casting SBF as used on the Original Cobra .



(I am not going to mention the Original Shelby America vehicle that I have owned since new, number 320 of 500).

[DanElam]

Originally posted by REAL 1
I wonder if there could be a comparison between the FFR spec racer and an equally preped Shelby spec racer. SB v. SB. BB v. BB.

I would be very interested to see the results. Same independent driver. That should indicate which car is capable of faster lap times.

Ok, this is one I can comment on.

First, I should point out that there are some real differences in the cars: FFR has a frame that is legal for GT-1, while the Shelby's do not. The Shelby cars have an independent rear end which certainly provides some advantages through the corners, but gives up a little on the initial run from the line. The FFR cars can be configured with IRS, but I can only think of maybe one or two that have been done that way. The NASA rules require the FFR cars to use a solid rear end. The Shelby's with IRS would be way more fun in an experienced driver's hands.

The FFR cars are designed to use a little bit better wheel setup, while the Shelby's go for the more historical look (which just looks better).

For an enduro, the Shelby is going to have a real advantage with their optional 42 gallon tank vs. the 22 we put in the FFR cars. In sprint races (or with the stock 20 gallon tank) it wouldn't be much of a difference since neither car would run full fuel.

If you go with the fiberglass, I would have to give the nod to FFR, but I haven't weighed them. Certainly an aluminum Shelby is going to have a lower center of gravity and some other advantages over FFR's fiberglass.

Assuming we have the same SB engine configurations, FFR is probably going to typically win since it is a bit lighter (typically a few hundred pounds). Most significantly, the FFR race car frame (I can't comment on the street car frame) that gives it incredible stiffness.

If you go with *typical* SB configurations, then the FFR cars won't win unless the course is really tight: most FFR Spec Racers have to limit their engine configurations to be NASA-legal while most Shelby cars, naturally, will want the more fun that HP brings.

For SB vs. BB it doesn't really matter: the SB were almost always faster than the BB and that is probably true for most tracks today. The SB just have so much better balance than the BB configurations.

It is sort of a waste of electrons/brain cells, but what would be the differences if the cars both had IRS, the same engines, and the same shock/spring configs? The bottom line: not much. Certainly FFR's spec racer frame gives it some advantages that only a race car can provide, but the only other differences that matter are a few related to some geometry. My understanding is that Shelby has faithfully duplicated a few 'quirks' that would contribute a little more to oversteer, but it isn't a big deal. An average driver (one with some track time) is probably not going to be able to notice much of a difference until they, um, run out of talent.

In reality, most Shelby race cars are high HP, balls-of-fun cars designed for the intermediate driver to get a ****-eating-grin. The FFR cars are designed as full performance race cars that can be maintained on a limited budget. (Our FFR spec racer can be raced for less money than a Spec Miata and maybe than our RX-7 race car.) Both are fun. FFR has been successful with the spec racer because it has a series and is cost effective racing. Guys who looked at the Shelby series (me included) were faced with lots of travel time, limitations on sponsorship (it was really 'new' vintage racing) and no sanctioning body. The cars alone aren't enough to carry a series. FFR was smart to partner with NASA. In particular, FFR was smart to partner with Chris Cobetto when he was trying to build NASA on the east coast at the same time.

Want to compare to originals? Well, an original 427 with a race history goes for around $325K. The aluminum is so thin that you can push your hand in it. Very, very light. They usually run with crap tires, but you can change that. Clearly they can be faster than new cars from either Shelby or FFR, but my guess is that most people won't drive them quite as hard!

[Jamo]

Wayne

By golly, it might just turn into a long thread. Don't know why, though.

[REAL 1]

I am seriously interested in a FFR Spec racer.

Whats the cost of purchase and build?

Where and when do you run them?

When my house renovations and hockey career slow down I want one!

[Dan Semko]

Hockey career?
Evan when did the home ec class finish? Do they permit those double bladed skates in competition? Come on, you can share the truth with your friends, you REALly operate the Zamboni!

[Kputz]

It's times like this when I realize how truly I miss Meat. If only to regularly see a messenger shot. Can one only imagine the apoplexy with the SAAC crowd if FFR did put together a buy out of SAI which came with the rights to call the thing a Shelby? The book would contain more asterisks than the Milky Way. Pretentiousness has it's risks.

[TAZ]

Real 1,

The spec racer kit goes for $13,990. Spec racers have a lot of limits as too what you can do to the car and still race in the spec racer series.

After this add the cost for the donor car/pallet/crate engine and parts plus wheels and tires and paint. You're talking somewhere close to $20K for a race car.

You'll have to accept the fact that you can't run an IRS setup, you have to have a 302 in it.

Here's a link for schedule http://www.factoryfive.com/table/sho...schedule02.htm

And here's one for rules http://www.factoryfive.com/table/ffr...03rulesV12.pdf

TAZ

[Jason Lee Nye]

Since I won't being racing in the Spec Series anytime soon I am going beyond the stock set up. Funny how you start out with a budget in mind and then halfway through you say screw it and go for it all. So far I am only $10K over budget with the paint job ect.

I started out with stock donor parts and when I am done, I think the only thing donor will be the 8.8 axle. After all, is there a need to buy a new axle?????

My little baby will be street legal as well. The only bummer is the fact that I will have to climb over the doors when running up to the store to get some milk and eggs.

Next time the Spec cars are in Vegas I hope to make it and meet some of the Factory 5 Spec Racers. I did have an opportunity to see the yellow SAI car that they race when SAI came into town last year. Also saw the Series 1. Nice looking machine, a bit stiff on the price but very nice looking. I also saw a Series 1 in Newport Beach. It is really a shame they priced the Series 1 out of the market because it is such a nice machine. Since the performance numbers are comparable to the Viper it would seem appropriate for them to be priced in the same range, but that is my opinion.

[decooney]

... so back to the original subject after tons of sidebar discussions:

- is FFR buying SAI or not?

Yes, No, Maybe - What's the updated scoop on this?

[DanElam]

Originally posted by REAL 1
I am seriously interested in a FFR Spec racer.

Whats the cost of purchase and build?

Where and when do you run them?

Completed cars are going in the mid-20s for cars built by professional builders. It's probably cheaper to buy one finished than pay someone to build it from scratch. You can certainly build it yourself for around $20K. One suggestion is to not get too hung up on paint: if I had it over to do again I wouldn't go with the expensive metallic paint. These are, after all race cars and they see rocks and rubber. A pretty non-metallic will be easier in the long run.

Maintenance on the cars is obscenely inexpensive - a very pleasant surprise that we did not anticipate. The cars are very simple and the Ford running gear makes them easy to maintain. Our maintenance budget is slow low I am ashamed to tell anyone. More than once we have just pulled the car out of the trailer from the last race and wiped the brake dust down before running it again. It's something you just don't see in other race cars.

As for as where, you run with NASA. The primary series are Nouth/South California, Mid-Atlantic, Ohio/Indiana, and Texas/Oklahoma. I think Arizona may be up now and Florida and Michigan should be up soon. They are running as time trial in the Northeast with COM, but will probably be up there in the next few years. This year's National Championship will be held in Las Vegas.

You can also run with SCCA in GT-1 where the cars won't be competitive, at best, and maybe illegal, at worst. Then you have to run with SPO or another regional class where you are frequently up against cars in the $250K range. Consider it cheap track time or guage yourself against an A-Sedan car for fun. Last year we managed a second and a third in SCCA GT-1 races, but it took some yellow flags, a little luck, and a whole lot of late braking to make it work.

Another option is to see Racing Adventures. They use the Spec Racers in an illegal configuration, but the concept is basically the same. They rent them for schools (might count towards your competition license).