Evan - a little history lesson...

[wilf leek]

Evan - you and I have shared a beer in the past and no doubt will do so again in the future, so I hope you will not take offence if I now correct something you said elsewhere.

I noticed in another thread that you demonstrate a rather US-centric view of the history of the cobra. I missed my chance to put things straight there, since you were having so much fun talking about motorcycles, and I didn't want to spoil that.

You diminshed the input of AC cars into the development of the Cobra to almost zero, talking about a thin, twisty little chassis from some insignificant UK sportscar destined only for oblivion.

I can't let that erroneous impression continue.

Shelby must take full credit for the concept of the Cobra sporstcar. He wanted his own car badly from before the time his health stopped him actively racing. He did make contact with AC cars, and the reason he did that was because he had seen, in Europe (and in the US), the success in various forms of motorsport of the AC Ace in its various incarnations, most notably the Bristol-engined Ruddspeed Aces.

The Ruddspeed Ace translated directly into the AC, then Shelby, Cobra, with minimal changes to its design. Sure, the rear end was modified to take a Salisbury differential, and an additional cross member put into the tubular ladderframe just in front of the diff.
Quite sensible bearing in mind the increase in torque and power from the new Ford 220cu in motor over the Bristol 2 litre unit.

Apart from mods to the rear hubs to help them survive the massive increase in power, the chassis and suspension which then went on to become the 289 Cobra was almost identical to those early UK cars. Shelby himself made much of it's sweet handling.
And look at the motorsports success that followed for the 289 (and not, funnily enough, for the 427).

I try hard not to beat my own nationalistic drum too hard here on CC, but every now and then, I have to stand up for the UK input into this American motoring icon.

Shelby had the dream and made the concept a reality, but nearly every single one of those original cars was born and built in the UK, and crossed the Atlantic as a roller. The roots and most of the fabric of the Cobra are firmly planted in English soil.

I think it is one of the greatest success stories of Anglo - American engineering co-operation (rather like the Merlin engine which made the Mustang fighter a success as a long range escort fighter, admittedly only after the application of US mass-production know-how).

So, there you go, history lesson over.

Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now, and return to learning from you guys. But please don't forget that the Cobra is not just a US creation. It was teamwork.

[Excaliber]

Bravo!!! Well said!!! I always did love those English rides. The Cobra was a natural for me because it brought together the best of both worlds.

And the marriage between Ford and Jaguar? Ahhhh,,,,it's a thing of beauty to me!

Ernie

[REAL 1]

Dear Wilf: Thank you for the lesson.

There can be no question of AC's role in the Cobra's original history. I am not trying to cheat the English from their rightful place in Cobra history. Clearly without AC the Cobra would not exist, at least in the form we know it today.

Clearly the existence of the Cobra was an effort of teamwork between apple pie and biscuits.

My point has simply been that without Shelby there would never have been a Cobra in any form. He had the idea; he had the gumption to approach Chevy and Ford; he worked tirelessly to create the car; to develope the 289; to refine it; to campaingn it and achieve two world championships with it. AC play little role in accomplishing this with the exceptioin of providing the body and platform.

AC in 1961 was on a respirator. The AC was about to go the way of the T-Rex. AC welcomed the opprotunity Shelby brought them. It was a new lease on life for them and turned out to be a Godsend bringing life back to the company.

Point of note. The AC's design has its genisis in the Tojerio special based itself on a Ferrari design. The Tojerio special that in essence became the AC Ace was based on LOY 500.

In fact after the Cobra "era" AC as I understand again slipped back into difficulty and never enjoyed the sales success it had with the Cobra. AC as I understand is turned into Autokraft.

I suspect if AC wasn't around ol' Shel might have accomplished his feat with someother chasis and donor.

As to the 427, in short Shelby and Miles created it and designed it with the help of Ford and Claus Arning. Not AC. AC was given the specs and asked to build it. In fact from my understanding Shelby wanted to build the 427 in house but labor rates in England at the time were much more favorable.

While I do not seek to deprive AC of its rightful place in Cobra history its Shelby and SAI that I believe should get most of the credit. No insult intended. I'm just looking at the factual history. So while the Cobra's basics (chasis and body) clearly has its roots in English soil, it was Shelby who transplanted it as a sapling, watered it, fed it, trimed and nurtured into a giant AMERICAN RED WOOD and into to the world champion it became and the legend it is.

How'd I do? Do I get an A?

BTW: You will buy the beer. Only kidding. Anyone flying across the pond to spend a weekend with Rakki swilling Cobra nuts should'nt have to buy.

[JWheaton]

[quote]Originally posted by wilf leek


(and not, funnily enough, for the 427).


Is "funnily enough" good English? I axpect better from a Brit


I try hard not to beat my own nationalistic drum too hard

It would break otherwise. Where is your friend Robert to assist?

The roots and most of the fabric of the Cobra are firmly planted in English soil.

Is that why rust is prevalent in Cobras?

[computerworks]

funnily
adv : in a strange manner; "a queerly inscribed sheet of paper"; "he acted kind of funny"
-The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

DO NOT question the linguistics of the Honorable and Official Gashole Grammarian. (HOGG).

[ToyCollector]

Originally posted by Excaliber


And the marriage between Ford and Jaguar? Ahhhh,,,,it's a thing of beauty to me!

Ernie

Just as nice as BMW/Ford and the new Range Rover. What a ride!! BMW technology underneath in the right places, British luxury and styling, and Ford's pockets to keep the thing going.

[JWheaton]

Not to leave Evan out of the parsing exercise of his rebuttle to the response

[quote]Originally posted by REAL 1


[b]Dear Wilf: Thank you for the lesson. (what he really means is --- I will show you now.....that the Brits have no creativity and forethought with the car)

There can be no question of AC's role in the Cobra's original history. I am not trying to cheat the English from their rightful place in Cobra history. yes you are

Clearly the existence of the Cobra was an effort of teamwork between apple pie and biscuits. at least add in English breakfast tea or blood sausage or something

My point has simply been that without Shelby there would never have been a Cobra in any form. He had the idea; he had the gumption to approach Chevy and Ford; he worked tirelessly to create the car; to develope the 289; to refine it; to campaingn it and achieve two world championships with it. AC play little role in accomplishing this with the exceptioin of providing the body and platform. see comment above -- the slippery slope has been breached with max speed happening soooo

AC in 1961 was on a respirator. The AC was about to go the way of the T-Rex. AC welcomed the opprotunity Shelby brought them. It was a new lease on life for them and turned out to be a Godsend bringing life back to the company. oooonnnn -- Mach 1 acheived in 30 word or less -- not bad

Point of note. The AC's design has its genisis in the Tojerio special based itself on a Ferrari design. The Tojerio special that in essence became the AC Ace was based on LOY 500. I think it look more like a refined Cunningham before a Ferrari, but you do manage to slow the bashing a bit

I suspect if AC wasn't around ol' Shel might have accomplished his feat with someother chasis and donor. [/color] would we care though? Could he have transformed a Chevy Vega, Dodge Omni....oh he tried that one. The AC body added to the British allure which in part makes up the desireability of the car. Shelby could not have replicated (or orginated that presence)

As to the 427, in short Shelby and Miles created it and designed it with the help of Ford and Claus Arning. Not AC. AC was given the specs and asked to build it. You are in full cheat mode now -- approaching Mach 2 In fact from my understanding Shelby wanted to build the 427 in house but labor rates in England at the time were much more favorable.

[JWheaton]

Originally posted by computerworks


funnily
adv : in a strange manner; "a queerly inscribed sheet of paper"; "he acted kind of funny"
-The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

DO NOT question the linguistics of the Honorable and Official Gashole Grammarian. (HOGG).

Dammit -- Do you where dictionary like a friggin' pocket protector???

[wilf leek]

Evan - I think we are in agreement. That's fine. See - teamwork is what makes things go better. The beers are on you. :lol:

BTW - I have to say that Jaguar would be nothing without the input from Ford. From unreliable 80's liabilities to top of the JD Power ratings here in the UK now. Remarkable transformation.
Not too sure of the "X" type personally, but what the hey.

The jury is out on LandRover right now - that company is still mid-transformation.

The new Rangie is a tour de force, pity BMW cleared off with all the software codes when they left, leaving the poor Landie engineers well and truly in the lurch. I think they might have it straightened out by now, but as with the previous model, I find it difficult to understand how the reputation for these things survives their appalling build quality and reliability.
As for the Defender - ours needed a complete new gearbox at 30,000 miles. Not exactly an event likely to endear it to me, and one day I might be able to stop the roof leaking!!

Nope - there are some things about UK automotive engineering that could still do with improvement. But, as we say, "We're getting there".

Looking forward to seeing you guys at the 'fling.

[Tom T.]

Wilf,

My wife and I honeymooned in London some 16 years ago, and had a wonderful time. I can say without qualification that I did not meet one Brit I did not like. You've got class and style, cousin.

Best,

Tom T.

[Tom T.]

J. Wheaton,

You're good. Very good.

TT

[Turk]

Jamie,
Give it up.
Your command of HTML sucks.

It is also "wear" NOT where.

TURK
English Spoken Here.

[ToyCollector]

Originally posted by wilf leek


The new Rangie is a tour de force, pity BMW cleared off with all the software codes when they left, leaving the poor Landie engineers well and truly in the lurch.

Hmmm, that explains the radio/GPS glitches I have already discovered I bought a repossessed RR meaning I have one of the first stateside ones already a year+ old, so I have version 0.9 of the code I am sure Warranty is a beautiful thing. Wilf, I traded my D90 in on it after it was leaking tranny fluid with 18,000 miles on it. One of my good friends wanted to buy it, but I figured selling the D90 to him would ruin the friendship

[REAL 1]

JWheaton: Read "between the lines" much?

Wilf: Ditto. We bought a new LR Disco. Its a great SUV. Very solid. Only gripe is that I keep hitting my head on the roof when I get in.

[Turk]

Evan,
and you are how tall? 6'2", or 6' 3"?


TURK

[KobraKarl]

Wilf.....HERE-HERE huzza grumble mumble hrumpfh

Jwheaton.....You gotta give Evan a break, he's has been in the trenches all week and is starting to swing at shadows ,he's been harrassed , insulted and ridiculed................Im even begining to feel sorry for him.....and to top it off, now he's gotten taller

KK

[REAL 1]

No you dumbies. I have to sit on a telephone book to see over the dash!

[JWheaton]

Turk

My fine Middle Eurpoean/eastern friend just becuase you constantly think about thongs does not mean that every "where" needs to be "wear". And you are right, my HTML does suck. Did I use some of that crap today?

KK
I gotta get to Evan when he is down. That is when he makes mistakes, or at least writes shorter diatribes that I can actually read all the way through

Evan is that a NYC phone book or townie book from NJ?

[Chaplin]

If it's the townie, he'll have to collect several from neighboring towns because the local ones aint that thick

[BILL WARREN]

EVAN...CAN I BUILT ONE OF MY NEW MOVIE THEATRES IN YOUR BACK YARD??? I WILL PUT IT RIGHT NEXT TO THE POOL..OK??