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Kirkham Motorsports

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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 05-31-2003, 11:28 AM
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Rolexes suck.

Panerai!
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 05-31-2003, 11:39 AM
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Wink Ouch Jamo!

I really do like my Rollie........I even wear it when I work on my F5! Scott
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 05-31-2003, 11:56 AM
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Not to get drawn into another bb/sb fest, BUT:
Alex and Edley, The Boss 429 Mustang was a bit of a dog...because Ford was scared $hitless of putting a well tuned 429 Hemi on the street in 1969 and '70. Don't forget that they also came with complete smog setups. Many articles have been written and vaildated on just what needs to be done to reverse the Ford 'detuning' of these motors. As far as not using them for drag racing? I use one for this purpose all the time and have no problems! It is true that the motor likes to rev....please remember that you're not in your wifes grocery getter, so it is safe to rev the motor past 4000 rpm. I usually twist mine to about 6800 at shift points, and it has never complained. With the o/d trans it is still likeable on the road with 4.11 gears (3.28 final). And gas mileage.....lets talk about something else! I dont know how these discussions get so far off in a field, but BOTH the FE and the Lima are great motors when properly tuned and used. I see many discussions on the $ of FE's, and I can tell you that I did NOT spend 25000 on my Boss...including the machine work at Unsers place! If anyone with an FE or Windsor would like to run a grudge match...I can tell you the hours at the Texas Motorplex and we can go have a good time!
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Old 05-31-2003, 01:26 PM
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Can anyone enlighten me as the #'s of original 427 Cobras built with 427TO, 427SO, 428, and whatever else Ol' Shel threw into them in the 60's. Also, what carb setups went with each?

Albright42
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 05-31-2003, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by albright42


Can anyone enlighten me as the #'s of original 427 Cobras built with 427TO, 427SO, 428, and whatever else Ol' Shel threw into them in the 60's. Also, what carb setups went with each?

Albright42
There is no definitive records.

However, the first run of Comp and S/C cars (51 of them) came with 427SO. A few early cars had lightweights; most were standard 427SO. Comp cars had single 4-bbl; S/C's were mixed as per customer order...either 1x4 or 2x4.

First run of streetcars (approx 100) had 427SO and, they say, some TO. The standard for street cars was 2x4.

Next run of street (at least the second 100) had 428, 2x4.

Somewhere in the last batch they switched back to 427, 2x4.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 05-31-2003, 05:40 PM
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Corrected UPDATE!

427 Side Oiler is NOT 1/10th of ANY engine, no more than a Superformance is 1/10th the Cobra as compared to Contemporary.
To say something is better than something else is hard enough to prove as it is, but to say something is 10 times better, will bring out the TRUTH POLICE.

I guess what drew me into this little get together, wasn't the fact that I can categorically prove that 427 is a legendary engine for this or that reason. I can't!

I got sucked in here because someone said 460 is a "better engine by a factor of 10 . They said it was 10 times better.!!

In later posts, there was no clarifications, no "figure of speech". It was said matter of factly.

That is a tall order. We all have our likes and dislikes. It is not a mystery I favor a BB over a SB. Have said so many times. While making my argument in favor of the BBs, I would loose all credibility if I said something that outrageous.
"10 times better"??

Big Block Ford engine is at best 8 times the engine than any Small block.

That is how you do it.


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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 05-31-2003, 08:55 PM
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This is getting crazy,,,but,,I was a ford dealer parts manager from 1976 thru 1982,at the same time was a crew member for an arca/short track race team running 427's.. I have seen no evedence the 460's were even close to as reliable as the fe's..all thing equal,,new stuff versus new stuff,I am going by shp visits and warraaantay repairs since both motors were in production at the time,I think there is some what of a generation gap,,as everyone seems to like what they have,,and i admit,,i have never liked 460 style engines,,not sure why,maybe it is because I grew up with fe's and still love them.
I will still argue the reliabilty thing between 460's and 427's,,all things equal,,the problem I feel is largely the fe stuff around ,,other thenthe new dove and sai is 40 yrs old,,worn out,bored,and welded,whata if ford was putting together fe 427 crate motors for 7 or 8 k ,,? what then ?I have a feeling opnions would change.
lets remember,the 427 was a aracing engine from the ground up,that found its way into very few street cars,EVERY other engine is the opposite,,427s had high nickle content reinforced blocks which were exclusive to that engine,as were most other internals,,so it wasnt feesible to produce since ford dumped the racing program in the late 60's.for a few years racers,truck pullers and hot rodders searched out what was left of these parts,c8az service blocks thru 1980 or so,when they were gone that was that,it would be nice to compare a new,motorsport prepared crate 427 to the same in a 460 motor,but that will never happen,like I said..450+ ou tof the box compared tpo the 460 at what ? high 200's ?not quite a fair shake,,the ford crate motors are mediocre parts put together well to generate decent horse power,thats why they have to go to huge cubes to get to the same power as a well tuned 427 inch fe,,which i still contend
iif well built,,and good stuff in the first place are more than reliable,down side is they are pretty heavy,,and cumbersome to work on,,and of course,like all truly great things away from the boring norm,,,I feel a bit qualified to say,,I have owned,wrenched,and sold all the above,,I forget who said it,,but this site does tend to get jealous and vindictive,some how we are losing respect for eachother,all that said,,I doubt any one with an avarage 427 would swap it for a new anything else,, ,,Tk
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 05-31-2003, 09:00 PM
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I was watching a Tractor/Truck pull in D.C. once. This guy had a 460, STRONG puller,,,,,,right up until the rod made a BIG hole in the side of the block. I checked it out later in the pit area, ugly.

I don't know, I was never a big fan of the 460, seeing that didn't help!

Ernie
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 05-31-2003, 09:02 PM
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and,,I dig my rolexes,,I can wear them 5 years and get my money back,,just another toy,,like a cobra
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old 05-31-2003, 09:08 PM
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this stuff reminds me of the harley/metric bike argument,I have guys come into my dealership on yammies or hondas,,,{which are great by the way}they ditch harley,,all the while maxing the credit card to make their bike sound and look almost like one,,then comes the day when they can afford the real deal,,all of a sudden it is the best thing on 2 wheels,,sort of funny when he trades in the jap bike and loses 7k ,,Tk
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Old 05-31-2003, 09:15 PM
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First of all, people here are comparing as Mr. Misfit put it "a 427 engine was a racing engine from the ground up" to a 460 engine out of a pickup. A 500+ c.i. "stroker" engine has ALL high performance racing parts on it. I have yet to see Edelbrock aluminum heads on a Ford truck yet. I never said get a 460c.i. out of a lincoln and put aluminum heads on it and call it a race engine. Also, comparing a 460 c.i. engine in a passenger vehicle (for reliability) is a joke. It is NOT the same racing engine discussed in this thread. People, stop comparing a $4,000.00 (or less) factory 460 c.i. Ford engine to a $28,000.00 427 S.O. engine.

Mr. Excalibur:

I guess no 427 S.O. engine has ever thrown a rod? I am sure the engine didn't do it due to "human error" and not a defect of the 460 engine.
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 06-01-2003, 08:09 AM
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I thought about this silly thread all night,,we all sounds like kids arguing over whos daddy has the most important job,I didnt dream of having my shell valley car,the fantasy would be csx 3022,,then csx 4???,,but had settled for an spf ,,then ran across this car at a deal,,BUT,now I have it,,and I can see it is a great car, i think most are,it is all in the build and detail,,bottom line is real world experience is better than reading and specs{in some ways}.we tend to split hairs,, ,the 427 is the premier performance engine built by any one,,but that was 40 years ago,I admit I am into the nostalgia thing,but I have loads of experience with the motors,,all before alum shelbys and dove,,390's in cars and 361/391's in heavy trucks,,they are some of the greatest,but not with worn out,,junk yard parts.
But there are many other great motors ,,I guess all of them if done right,,
all the comparison is done using 1960's 427 specs,,I would love to see a freshly prepared 427 with trick suspensions and good tires like all of the newer cars used,,that would be fair,,another thing is,,we are talking max built 351's and 460's,,compared to fairly tame 427's,I think the shelby blocks can be stroked/bored to over 800 ci,s..so,,this isnt apples and apples
I think we should use this forum for what it is meant,,learning and trading ideas,,not bickering,,hell,,we ALL have awesome cars,,i say we enjoy them more,, and pick at eachother less,,Tk
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Old 06-01-2003, 08:48 AM
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Mr. Misfit:

A 600+ horsepower 460 "stroker" engine is concidered a tame engine. Ricky smith sold 1,500 horsepower 460 "stroker" engines (Pro Stock) in the 1980's. The key here is the 460 engine family has been developed to the max. Right now a 460 engine is "down to a science". There are so many parts available it is unreal, you probably have 10 "world class" companies with just brand new improved heads for the 460 engine family. If you want to compare the specifications on the 460 "modern racing " heads to a 427 "modern racing" heads the 460 heads are better. Just because the 427 heads might cost twice as much, doesn't make them better. Most modern "custom" 460 race engines are all new parts except for the engine block. How many 427 engines are running around with all new parts, except the block?
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Old 06-01-2003, 09:15 AM
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Mine is.

Bandit, I hate to tell you, but you are really running a chevy motor. Ford copied the BBC design for their 385 series motors. Same short skirt type block. Same 2 and 4 main bolt arrangements. Same canted head design, even the rocker arms are interchangeable. You can even get the Ford head with CHEVY exhaust ports. However, Ford couldn't copy everything, as obviously there are some differences. I would have thought GM would have sued Ford.

The 460 is a good motor, but the vast majority produced were passenger/truck blocks, 2 bolt mains, low performance. All 427's sold in cars were considered hign performance. All had crossbolt mains. Ever wonder that MOPAR copied Ford's crossbolt design for their 426 hemi? It must have some value. Even wonder that GM's new truck engines are deep skirt design with cross bolt mains, just the Ford 406'/427's? They must know something.

The 460 definitely has advantage's. Bigger bore spacing allowing more ci's. More and higher developed aftermarket parts. Etc.

Both can be great or poor motors. Depends who has built and what parts were used.
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Last edited by Anthony; 06-01-2003 at 09:19 AM..
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Old 06-01-2003, 09:20 AM
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Hey Excaliber how is that 302 running?
I can say that because I owned one!!!

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Old 06-01-2003, 09:55 AM
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Spoony,,,,,,dam I love that car!!!! I sold it last year and missed it SO much I bought it back! I had to pay him an ADDITIONAL 3 grand over what I sold it to him for (he didn't want to sell).

I need two things on the Excal, in this order.
1. Bigger brakes for the road course I run.
2. Another 100 horse power or so. I'm thinking Super Charger.

Ernie
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Old 06-01-2003, 10:49 AM
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I agree with Misfit.

Ron: There were top oilers in 427 Cobras???? When???? As far as I know there were two engines.

427SO and the 428 Police Interceptor. Period.

What are your sources that TO's were used????
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Old 06-01-2003, 12:27 PM
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Anthony:

There are many "new" 429/460 blocks from Ford racing and other manufacturers that are vastly superiour to the original 429/460 blocks. My disscussion was not about comparing a "stock" purpose built "original" 427 engine to a "stock" 460 engine out of a pickup or lincoln. My comments are simple, I can have a more dependable, more powerful 460 engine built for way less. For equal money, I could have a 1,000 horsepower all aluminum 500+ c.i. (460 "stroker" engine) for the price of a 550 horsepower 427 S.O. engine. If you were to go with a 700 horsepower all aluminum 427 engine, for the same price I could get a 1,600 horsepower all aluminum "gold plated" 600 - 800 c.i. 460 "stroker" engine.
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Old 06-02-2003, 04:56 AM
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If all you're looking at is dependability and cost per hp, then you should have put a 500+ ci chevy in your cobra.

The reason you went for the 460 is the reason some people go for the 427, only to a more extreme degree, more expensive degree.

Obviously, in your mind, you have justified the use of a 460. That's fine. In my mind, I justified the use of a 427. And for people who use a 454 chevy or a hemi, they had a good reason for choosing their engine as well.
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Last edited by Anthony; 06-02-2003 at 05:01 AM..
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Old 06-02-2003, 08:01 AM
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Anthony:

I didn't need to justify anything, I already had a 650 horsepower 427 S.O. engine in my 69 Mach 1. I could have easily put the 427 S.O. engine in the Cobra. I am not about resale value, "original" engine in a "non original" Superformance Cobra, or money (how could purchasing a new 520 c.i. (460 "stroker" ) engine be about saving money, when I already had a 427 S.O. engine?). I am about putting the best engine in, I think that is a 385 series engine. The only other engine I may put in a Cobra is going to be a "new" in the crate Holman and Moody 427 SOHC engine that my friend has.
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