Airline type "Black Box" IS in YOUR car!

[Excaliber]

You see the news tonight? Tom Brokaw.

Accident case on trial. The driver swears he was doing 55 mph. the prosecutor entered into evidence a "recording device" found in many of todays new cars. A Black Box if you would.

Conclusive and accepted data base that showed 5 seconds before impact the car was traveling a 114 mph!

Case closed, driver screwed!

Where in the hell is the black box in YOUR car and HOW do you disarm that bad boy????

Ernie

[petek]

Do you know what make/model/year of car? I wouldn't be surprised if a black box existed on newer cars as everything is going electric/electronic. Speedometer cable is just an electrical wire, throttle cable is just a electrical wire, etc.

Disable the black box? Sure; rip out the Fuel Injection, change the tranny and speedometer and put in a mechanical speedometer cable, junk the throttle-by-wire and put in a REAL throttle and cable ... well, you get the idea.

I wonder how deep the memory is on the black box. There might be a good market for a device to plug into the black box and record say 30 minutes of 10mph!

[CRZN427]

I saw the Brokaw report also.

The reference to the black box was to the device that controlls the deployment of the air bag.

This device needs to know the velocity of the car to be able to control the deployment speed of the air bag, and has a memory span of 5 seconds.

So it may not be on all air bag equipped cars since a varied rate of deployment is more on the newer end of things.

The older versions that measure impact force for deployment may also be useful in countering a claimed speed at the time of impact.

In this case, given that the black box speed was accurate, I think the driver got a just reward, not a screwing.

There is no place I know of on the streets or highways where 114 mph is an acceptable speed.

Take the risk of speeding, accept the consequences of your actions.

[Excaliber]

CRZN427,

Point well taken! The driver did indeed get his just "reward". Makes sense it would be related to Air Bag deployment. Been a lot of air bag injuries, it's the next logical step in safety (and law enforcement?)!

I caught just the tail end of the story, missed WHAT or WHERE the box was or what kind of car.

Ernie

EDIT: Pete,,,,,,,,,LOL,,,,you crack me up man!!! Those crazy Texans!!!

See below

[Pete C]

The U.S. Government installed a "Black Box" recording device in order to determine what people say right before they get into an auto accident.
89% of the people in 49 states said: ''Oh, ****!''

In Texas 94% said: ''Hold my beer. Watch this.''

Cheers, Pete C

[FIA#9]

Supposedly the newer Corvettes have the black box. I question how it can be admitted as evidence because police car speedos must be calibrated in order to be entered, which is why only cruisers can earn you a ticket in New York.

[mr0077]

I'll try to get some more information from our VAR (vehicle accident reconstruction) section, but a seminar I attended discussed the information that can be downloaded from the "cpu" (the computer control) in almost all newer cars and trucks...particularly the over-the-road models (Ford, Cat. etc.); minimal information recording started in 1996 I think. That info is used for all sorts of things (good and bad), like troubleshooting engine problems, monitoring a driver's speed, how long he stops, throttle position, RPM, gear selection, actual gear engaged, brake application, acceleration and deceleration rates up to and during a collision, etc. We download and use that information from vehicles that were in accidents to reconstruct the accident.
As I understand, it is embedded in the CPU, and can't be easily bypassed. The trend is toward gathering even more information, since the government would like to know more about YOU (of course), owners and operators (trucking lines) can identify abuses, etc., and the manufacturers are realizing this could be a "cool tool" to find out what you were doing just before your motor blew up in that warranty claim you're filing, troubleshoot (OBD II already useful for that) and as evidence in civil and criminal cases.
I'll see what I can find.

[klayfish]

It's nothing new. Some automakers have been putting these "black boxes" in their cars since the early 1990s. It's just that the news is getting out now. Many new cars today have them in it. They are not traditional black boxes in the sense that most people know. For the most part, they "monitor" the vehicle operations, such as all the things going on inside the motor, the throttle position, speed, brakes, and such. The amount it actually records is very short. When the vehicle detects a collision or similar event, it takes a roughly 5 second (depending on manufacturer) "snapshot" of the events. So it will have the speed, throttle, brake, decel forces, etc....right up to the point of impact. On most cars, once this happens, the box has to be replaced, because that snapshot is frozen into the memory bank, and it would not be able to record another event. Unless the vehicle has some kind of GPS system in it, it cannot record the vehicle location.
The automakers are very, very protective of this information. It is very difficult to get. Some, such as BMW and Mercedes, won't give anything to ANYONE. You have to subpeona them in court to get the records, and even then, it is a fight.
I think before long, they will be standard equipment in all cars. Comes along with modern technology, I guess.

Steve

[Mark IV]

..a late model Firebird.

Yes, these are in some cars tied to to control of the airbags. The "memory" feature, I think, is more closely tied to the defense of "my airbags didn't work right, No I didn't have my seatbelts on, so what?" types of lawsuits against the manufacturer than to forensic law enforcement.

It never ceases to amaze me what stupid things people will do and what they believe certain safety devices will do for them. The best one was seeing a late model Volvo wagon pull up driven by a YUP Soccer mom with little brat bouncing around the front of the car unrestrained. Another person questioned the mother "how come your kid isn't in a car seat, in the rear as required by New York law?" Mom's reply? "This is a Volvo, a very safe car with SIX airbags so he is safe"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And no comments about the "soccer mom" tag, I am using it in the current vernacular, I LIKE soccer, my kids played and I was an associate coach....

Rick

[Clois Harlan]

BIG BROTHER

[Mr.Fixit]

I heard something a year ago or so that you can buy an aftermarket blackbox to monitor your teenager's driving habits, driving dpeed, G-forces, that kind of thing. I can't wait till the government mandates them for all cars, won't that be great.

[TomH]

I hate to break it to you, but the EEC-IV that is under the hoods of a lot of these Ford powered cars is the evil "Black Box." (GM = ECM/PCM) Those "trouble codes" we use to diagnose problems also include (relative) time, temp, and a variety of information including engine speed and wheel speed (ABS). If you do a Web search on OBD (On-Board Diagnostics) you'll get a better picture of what's going on in these control modules. The Fed (EPA) mandates the base set of OBD codes, but car makers are free to add additional functionality. No Boogie men here.

114 on a city street? Book 'em Dano!

[Excaliber]

If the picture they showed of the accident was any kind of indication of relative "speed" it left me scratching my head how so much damage was done at "only" 55 mph. Seems like the prosecutor had a good case for speeding with or without the "black box".

Ernie

[Charlie]

Add the On-Star system and Big Brother will even know exactly what you are doing while you are doing it. Once they get their act together, the government will be able to send someone to intercept your lawless acts (say speeding) while you are doing it. Paranoia? Perhaps now, but ask yourself that question 10 years from now. I bet 30 years ago nobody dreamed they would have automated photographing equipment at intersections.
Charlie

[Ron61]

No complaints about the so called black boxes as the streets aren't for 100 mile per hour plus driving. However I do wonder if some of the safety features may be causing some accidents due to the fact some people think because thay have all this stuff they don't have to worry and pay less attention to their driving. I see people drive through the stop signs and red lights around here all the time and the only wreck I have seen was someone did stop at a sign and the woman following him rear ended that guy's car. She told the cops it was his fault because he stopped and she never stops at these signs as her car has air bags, and all the safety equipment. Because I was stopped at the other sign across the intersection I had to give the police what I saw and I couldn't believe that woman and her language about us SOBs that stop at every sign and light. It didn't help her with the police though as she still got nailed for failure to stop and recless driving. Her final statement to me was. "If you bastards would get cars with all the safety equipment you wouldn't have to stop at every stop sign."

Ron

[427sharpe]

All the ECM's in OBD2 cars have a limited memory retention....Not difficult to use a handheld scanner and probe memory to find quite a few measures...throttle position, abs application, wheel speed, transmission engagement and hundreds of other fun facts!Rumor has it that OnStar also tracks any 'abberrant' behavior..which is how the rent a car fleets were fining drivers for excessive speed or vehicle abuse. There was quite a lawsuit over this about a year ago in NY state I think.

[Excaliber]

Oh yeah,,,I remeber hearing about the law suit over the rental car with On Star!

Man it IS a brave new world..gives me the creeps sometimes!

Ernie

[flipper35]

I read an article just this morning about the rental companies using GPS devices to record where/when/how fast you drive their cars. A friend works for PacBell and they track him with a GPS device. When he stops for lunch the supervisers get an alert if the truck sits for more that thirty minutes. Most of the 'track your teen' devices are GPS. Company cars are getting similar devices. There are good uses for this technology. On-Star will call you (your vehicle actually) if the airbag deploys. If you confirm an accident or don't reply they send help to your location.

Here is a link to the article.

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stor...913976,00.html

[TomH]

OnStar is not a Big Brother "stooge." Think of them as a conduit. Events like air bag deployments, pushing the blue button, and check engine lights are all (small) discrete messages that can be easily transmitted. Vis-à-vis the "black box" idea, On-Star is limited to what already exists in the PCM and can add GPS data. OnStar cannot capture a complete "freeze frame" and can only transmit (some) DTC (Trouble Codes) but NOT the PIDs (Sensor values). Even before you consider OnStar's contractual relationship with their customers (OnStar's customer is the subscriber. OnStar even asks for permission - Driver's choice - before calling the ambulance/police. ), the bandwidth, communications protocol, and available storage capacity combine to suggest that the "Big Brother" stuff is strictly "urban legend."

[Kputz]

A good deal of this computerization has to do with the current "drive by wire" configuration of many newer and more high performance cars. Much of the information is used by the main computer to adjust breaking, traction control and especially your injectors.
If there is a culprit here, put the blame exactly where it belongs....with Uncle Sugar, and those that would prefer you drive what THEY feel is reasonable. As an auto maker you can't be expected to offer even mediocre performance AND comply with CAFE requirements with mechanical apparatus anymore. We all are aware there is a popular movement afoot as we speak to effect the demise of the SUV, and such things like computerizaton is used more and more to blend performance with the ever present government mandated overall economy and safety numbers.
Unfortunately, as time goes on, more and more of us DEMAND that which government purchases with our money.