New Guy Questions... - Page 2

SSS · #21 (**permalink**) 06-13-2003, 02:03 PM

Welcome to the madness Jon.

If building yourself is the first priority, FFR is a good choice. If cost is also a high priority, and you don't mind having used parts, FFR is probably THE best choice for you. FFR is unique in that there is such a large customer base, and a large online community, and you can easily get help on your build if you need it.

I was planning to build an FFR myself, strictly for the purpose of keeping cost down. I don't have much experience with car builds. I then found a new company called Carcepts that follows the same donor principle as FFR, but also builds complete turnkeys at a very reasonable price. Their price is so good that I wouldn't save much to build it myself, so I decided to buy a turnkey from them.

ERA and SPF are two of the premier Cobra replica manufacturers. There is a HUGE price difference between them and FFR. I know at least ERA offers kits. If you plan to put in a 427 or any other new parts or performance goodies, FFR loses its price advantage. The components FFR includes in their kit are as good as anybody. Replacing the donor parts becomes expensive. Other makes include nifty components by default, and you pay less by purchasing them together with the kit. Examples: B&B, Shell Valley, Unique, Lone Star, plus many others.

There definitely are differences in the bodies of the cars. Some manufacturers offer wheelbases beyond the original 90", usually to allow for more cockpit room. In my experience, the front ends of most Cobra replicas look the same. The rears is where you see a lot of difference. The flare of the rear fender can vary dramatically. The FFR 'perky butt' means that the rear end sticks up a bit. Looking at the car from a profile, it seems to me like the mold was bent up a bit at the rear wheel well. The shape of the rear fender is how I can usually differentiate different makes, and this is totally a matter of personal preference. It took me at least a year of looking at pictures of the cars to get familiar with it.

From ERA: profile comparison

There's nothing wrong at all with the FFR kit setup. The only drawback is having used parts. I understand that FFRs hold their own quite well in competition. You don't see oil coolers on FFRs because most of them are built with 302s that don't need an oil cooler.

As far as using Fox-Mustang components, if you'd want to use the gas tank, radiator, solid axle rear, and front suspension from a Mustang, then FFR is right up your alley. Otherwise, you can use the same components in most any Cobra replica.

If I were to recommend a Cobra replica for you, I would never include ERA, SPF and FFR in the same category. You can make a great car with any of them, but they are very different. FFR only makes kits. They stick stuff together so it fits in a crate, but that's it. ERA pre-installs most everything - that's part of the reason why it's more expensive. ERA only offers IRS. If you want to build an FFR at the level of an ERA, it's gonna cost ya. If you're looking for flexibility, and you want to do it all yourself, and you don't want to spend $50k-plus, choose FFR. If you want a prestigious, accurate, best-component, expensive car, choose someone like ERA.

Go to places like CobraCountry to learn about all the different makes. It sounds like FFR is right up your alley, but don't make a decision until you have thoroughly considered your options. Like I said, it took me at least a year before I could even tell the difference in the body shapes. A lot of FFR guys build with 17" rims, which is often a tip that the car is an FFR.

Good luck!

FFR428 · #22 (**permalink**) 06-13-2003, 03:06 PM

Ah yes the perky butt. This pertains to the cars ass as it looks "perky". It is the way the rear body fenders are molded. Someone on the FFR forum has dropped the butt down about an 1" to make it less perky looking. The modification gives the car a whole new more original look if you don't like the "PB". I really like the FFR for the hands on experience you get. The wait is about 2-4 months depending on how many orders they have at the time. The FFR has a host of options for you to choose and I like the fact it can be a big block build also. Excellent factory support and tech assistance. Overall I'm very happy with the FFR and oh yes I will build another!

Tongue Pirate · #23 (**permalink**) 06-13-2003, 03:06 PM

SSS,

Thanks! I out of breath now

Excaliber · #24 (**permalink**) 06-13-2003, 03:40 PM

Perky butt, it was very interesting to me to see the thread on the FFR site where the guy was "bending" the rear half of the body downward to avoid that look. Interesting because a lot of people LIKED the concept. That told me that even among FFR guys it is an issue that some don't like, and I concur. I've wondered why FFR hasn't taken any steps to "adjust" that "look". Maybe most like it?

Viewed from the side the FFR gas tank is readily visible as the rear fenders sweep up exposing it to view. Or is it that the gas tank hangs down to low?

The other feature that doesn't strongly appleal to me is the pointed shape of the rear tail light mounted on the trunk lid. Some other cars also come to an exagerated "point" for the tail light also. I prefer a smoother more rounded trunk license plate mounting point myself.

Often on FFR but also on many other cars is the WRONG choice of wheels. THIS IS CRITICAL to get the right Cobra look. It is NOT an area to "scrimp" on. Those fancy "after market" wheels YOU think look "nice" have a major impact on the overall "look/feel" of the car. 4 bolt wheels, are OUT! Get something with a "spinner" even if it's "fake" with 5 bolt wheels. Get as close to the original look with the wheels and that alone will make a HUGE difference in the overall acceptability of the "picky" crowd.

Heck I'm not that "picky", I drive an Excalibur, but it DOES have Compomotive wheels at least!

Ernie

galaxy · #25 (**permalink**) 06-13-2003, 03:46 PM

Hey, great link on the profile comparison. SSS, (and everyone) thanks for the great tips. Mostly stuff I have thought off but hearing it from you guys just shines more light on it for me. I will keep doing my homework but I think you guys are actually making me realize the FFR is the right one for me...and I even like the shape. Thanks again.

CSX 4039 · #26 (**permalink**) 06-13-2003, 05:02 PM

Galaxy- My $.02......
The initial price of the kit pales when you add the right equipment, paint, and time value of 100's of hours of assembly, if you are worth $10+/ hour. ERA looks better than ffr. On this, there is little disagreement. My unscientific opinion is that ERA resale is also better than ffr. If you are going to go low end engine (used 302) low end rear end, moderate paint, fit and finish, go ffr. If you want track quality drive train, wheels, brakes, suspension, engine, and near show quality paint, start with ERA.
I didn't build, I bought, and I'm an admirer not a racer.
The only reason I can think to put race quality drive train, and less expensive body is if you really intended to thrash your car on the track. "When you buy quality, you only cry once". Not to say ffr is bad quality now (the past may be a different story), but you get what you pay for....
Also, if $$$ huge limitation, buy used and fix what you don't like. There are a ton of sport cars on the market now, economy down, unemployment up, and all. Most guy sell their cars for $5-10-15K less than what they spent to build them. Save time, and take some of the saved money to fix what you want to change. My opinion.

Jim Werth · #27 (**permalink**) 06-13-2003, 07:36 PM

If your budget is tight check out B+B. I built mine for about $21,000. I've stuck more in it since then. First trany lasted 760 miles. Don't use any early t-5 with 351. Jim

Edley Rondinone · #28 (**permalink**) 06-13-2003, 08:24 PM

Ernie: Who cleans your Compomotives? Mine are a real BEAR to keep clean, with all the little nooks and crannies. I MIGHT be getting some Trigos this summer; depends on what kind of deal I get!! lol !!

Excaliber · #29 (**permalink**) 06-14-2003, 07:39 AM

They are tough to clean. The solution is quite easy however. I hire someone to do it for me. Is that cheating???? LOL

Ernie

casaleenie · #30 (**permalink**) 06-14-2003, 08:44 AM

Edley,

Lots of soap and a long bristled soft brush... just push the foam and brush into the "nooks and crannies" and rinse them down..
Do it often and they shine... It's just road film dust... the detergent breaks it down easily...

ERA 289 -- is there a link to compare the ERA 289 and the Unique 289 as to accuracy???? I also consider it a completely different body style to the 427, not better but just different...
Curious...

Buzz · #31 (**permalink**) 06-14-2003, 09:52 AM

Galaxy, don't make a decision until you take a good long look at Unique Motorcars. Definitely one of the best replicas out there. Beautiful body lines and more faithful to the original than most. The Deluxe pallet car option is one hell of a deal for the home builder and includes details that add additional cost on other "kits". The build is a breeze but involved enough that you feel like you are intimately familiar with the car when you drive it and the owners offer you a real friendly, personalized service that is all too rare in business these days. The price is super competitive when you consider all the extras and details and the finished car rides and handles beautifully. A real cut above many of the others out there. here is the link to their website:
http://www.uniquemotorcars.com/

Having said all that you couldn't go wrong with an ERA - still the most beautiful Cobra out there, bar none. Quality is top notch and the same thing said about the owners/management at Unique apply here also.

What more can be said about FFR? Hundreds of happy and loyal owners can't be wrong. You seem to be well informed about the pros and cons of this popular and successful Cobra.

Ditto for SPF - not much to add over and above what has already been said other than the fact that many owners who are experienced with cars from other manufacturers say that the SPF offers a level of fit and finish and overall "feel" that is closest to a "normal" or factory mass produced automobile.

All great choices depending on what you really want but if a great build experience, reasonable budget and authentic lines are important, you gotta check out Unique. I'd be surprised if anyone will disagree.

Good luck with your search and welcome to the awesome, crazy world of Cobras.

CRZN427 · #32 (**permalink**) 06-14-2003, 10:56 AM

Galaxie,

I am in the process of building an FFR, my second Cobra replica.

I built and drove an LAExotics, the same as the B&B now, for seven years and enjoyed every trip I took in the car whether it was to the grocery store or a vacation trip of over 1800 miles (took about ten of them).

I also entered about fifteen car shows each year, and I received over thirty trophies (best of class and best of show among them). I participated in both Kit Car Shows and Rod & Custom shows and have even parked along side original Cobras on at least three occations.

One thing I can say from all that is that it is very difficult to tell the difference between any of the cars, except the FFR (perky butt and all), including the originals if some attention to detail is paid during the assembly process.

Starting out with all new equipment is definately a plus as far as the "feel good" aspect goes but when you see so many of the Fox Mustangs running strong well after 100k miles it really is a mute point.

Nothing can cost so much to replace (except for a professionally built big block 427 S/O, or other extremely high horsepower engine) that the donor aspect is something to stay away from. Any enthusiast would only install servicable parts as they assemble the kit and new replacements are relatively inexpensive for those new donor parts that might be needed.

There are going to be trade offs in what ever you decide to do. An FFR is one choice, not that much different than any of the other offerings in the beginning, not considering initial cost of the kit. For instance, the FFR comes with all aluminum inner panels rather than fiberglass tubs for the cockpit and wheel well panels. The FFR body is unstressed, resting on a "space frame", some of the others are self supporting and are quite a bit heavier as a result and therefore subject to stress cracking.

Any of the kits can run up large sums in expenses if you choose to have all new documented pedigreed parts installed, whether you do it yourself or hire it done. The Mustang donor route leaves you some funds to get some of the other nice stuff that adds to the looks. After you get comfortable with the car there are many more choices of how to upgrade the power and handling if you choose to go for that.

Go to as many car shows as you can, there are Cobras entered in most of them by now and there are some that are exclusively for Cobras, DVSF III for one, where you can get a chance to see first hand what can be done with a kit.

Take a challange and see if you can identify the 'brand' of the kit just from observation. That dosen't include reading the display informatioin or body inentification tags, just by looking at the car. Then look at what was done to the car and the craftsmanship and originality some have displayed in their build.

Then talk to the owners. After some time you will begin to see what it is you are after, how to get it and how much you can expect to spend.

As always, one persons opinion.

Excaliber · #33 (**permalink**) 06-14-2003, 12:30 PM

That is a challenge to spot the "make" by just looking at any given Cobra. Takes some real skill and experience and is kinda fun. A bunch of them offer strong "clues" as you begin to understand the differences.

A round frame helps narrow it down, but you have to raise the hood or look underneath to see that!

It's fun doing "name that Cobra"! LOL

Ernie

galaxy · #34 (**permalink**) 06-17-2003, 08:15 AM

MAN, once again, you guys are totally awesome. Thanks for helping out a new guy so much. Espicially one that doesn't even "own" one yet. Hey, at least I have one fast Ford already. That should carry some weight??? Thanks again guys.

Flyin_Freddie · #35 (**permalink**) 06-17-2003, 09:40 AM

It's interesting that only one SPF owner responded to your note. I've been an SPF owner since October, 2000, when I took delivery of SPF#770. My dealer was Olthoff Racing in Charlotte, NC. Bob Olthoff was a driver/engineer for Willment Racing in the mid-60's and drove the Willment Daytona Coupe for several years throughout Europe and Africa in various races. He was quite succesful and has probably forgotten more about Cobras than most of us ever knew! Besides all that, Bob's a trusted friend and all around helluva guy to count among your friends. His son, Dennis, ran in One Lap of America, Run-n-Gun and other various racing venues running Superformance cars. I don't need to tell anyone how may races and championships they've one, as individuals and as a team. They indeed have lived the dream most of us have!

I bought my Superformance after visiting their shop in Charlotte, but I had already decided on Superformance before I even made that visit. I have the knowledge, expertise, tools, desire, and funding to build whatever kit I may have decided upon. But...the one thing I didn't have was TIME. I didn't want to spend 1-2 years building the car of my dreams...although I have every confidence that I could have done it. My problem is that I am so anal retentive about the little crap that it would have taken me 2-3 car builds to finally get one I was happy with!!!

The first one would have been nice, but that would have been the one I went to school on...my training project, so to speak. I would have made some errors, corrected them, and went on....but, I would always remember where those errors were, and it would have bugged the sh!t out of me until I sold it and started build #2.

The second car would have been much better than the first. I wouldn't have made all the rooky mistakes and wouldn't have had to 'settle' on some repair I had to make because I had drilled a hole in the wrong place, or something like that. The second would have been a 'keeper' but then I would have changed my mind with a couple of the options I chose while building #2.

The third car would have been the Dream Car. Everything I had done wrong on the first two would have been done right the first time on #3. I would have found and eliminated all the crappy painters on #1 and 2, and #3's paint would have been perfect! Basically, #3 would have been the one everyone dreams about!

But...realizing how anal I am, I looked at Superformance. The quality of workmanship was and still is OUTSTANDING! Aircraft grade hardware everywhere on the car...cadmium plated hardware with nylock nuts everywhere. Handmade wiring harnesses with zip ties every 6-8", adelm clipped to the inside of the frame rails - perfect in every way....just like I would have done on car #3. The paint looks like a custom show car finish....they're using PPG paints now, but when I first looked at them, they were using Glasurit....same as Porsche. Everywhere I looked, I was impressed with the overall fit, finish, and quality. These are factory built cars, hand assembled by craftsmen who really put a lot of pride into their work - and the finished product really shows it. I came back with a HUGE grin after my test drive...no doubt about it...THIS was my car!

The cars come as 'turnkey minus', meaning you'll have to arrange for the engine and transmission installation. There are several engine choices available from crate motor 351W's, mild-to-wild...385 horses to over 500....to 460's....again, mild-to-wild...480 horses to over 600...and FE's, too....427 side oilers...you name it. Most owners choose Tremec 5-speeds...3550's or TKO's, with some other choices in there, too. Independent four-wheel suspension, Wilwood brakes all around are now standard, real knock off Hallibrand replica wheels...Trigos are available, as are PSE, and Supeformance also makes their own wheels, too. There are new cloth tops available that are really nice, and a hardtop is an option.

The Superformance dealer network is superb...incredible service after the sale, readily available parts - most are off the shelf OEM parts, and SPF maintains a parts warehouse in Newport News, VA, for overnite parts availability, should you need it. Plus, SPF's come with a one year warranty, as well.

We Superformance owners have our own internet forum, Superformance Cobra Owners Forum, or SCOF. This is a private group of owners who exchange ideas, technical information, knowledge and camaraderie among ourselves.

All in all, I couldn't be more happier with my Superformance than I am....well, I guess I could, but it would involve a NEW Superformance .... their Daytona Coupe replica....have you seen it? It's OUT-FREAKIN'-STANDING!

You have received some good advice on this thread. The best was to take your time....look at all the manufacturers....decide on your budget, and then make your decision. I'll add one more tidbit....determine HOW you want to use the car. Will you just cruise in it....take it drag racing....take it road racing....just make car shows .... or some of each? Some cars are more 'at home' at cruise ins and car shows, and some are more at home at the drag strip, while others like road courses better. Me? I like the car shows, too.....but, my first preference is road racing! My Superformance looks great all dolled up for the car shows....but, take my street wheels off and install my Hoosiers, stick on my meatballs, swap out my roll bar, and I'll kick some major ass at most any road racing or autocross venue.

So...you've got some decisions to make, Mr. Galaxy. I don't envy you in your "pathway to happiness". But...still....it's fun to look at all that's available. Come on to Columbus, Ohio, this weekend for Double Venom's Spring Fling #3....there will be 250+ Cobra replicas there to look at, plus at least one ORIGINAL Shelby American car, as well, I believe. It'll be a great chance to compare, talk to the owners, and who knows...maybe even walk away with a new car!!!! Plus there'll be the odd beer, or two, consumed along the way.

And how cool is THAT...?