"Is it real?" - Page 3

2savage · #41 (**permalink**) 06-19-2003, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by REAL 1

If not for Shelby, the Ace and probably AC would have faded away into automotive history as a footnote somewhere.

Dem is da facts.

Actually, this part is an opinion. I'm sure you can tell the difference. The words 'probably' and 'would have' give you a few clues. But enough already This has been beaten to death.

REAL 1 · #42 (**permalink**) 06-19-2003, 01:30 PM

Actually, not opinion but "expert opinion" based on the facts as they existed.

Charlie · #43 (**permalink**) 06-19-2003, 01:54 PM

I take great pride in the fact that mine is a "kit". I built it entirely myself, I even painted it myself! Not too many people can say that. I owe a lot of my success to the great craftsmen at ERA who put together a nice "kit" to work with. It didn't take a lot of fixing to make it all fit together nicely. But I still did all the preparation, painting, carpeting, wiring and assembly myself. I would match the quality of my car to any professionally built factory car any day. That doesn't mean mine is better, but I do take offense to the notion that a home-built car is necessarily inferior to a factory-built car. I probably put a lot more man-hours into making everything just right than a factory would. If you guys want to just lay down the money and drive away, that is great! But don't think less of us who put our sweat and blood into our cars to create something we can be proud of building ourselves. When people ask me if it is a kit. I smile and say yes, and I did ALL the work myself, including the paint. That usually brings very gratifying looks of astonishment.
Charlie

427 S/O · #44 (**permalink**) 06-19-2003, 02:40 PM

Good deal Charlie, you beat me in the paint and upholstery dept. I concentrated first on the engine, transmission, rear end and suspension. Items I was able to do and consider most important. The term 'riding on rails' would best describe my ride along with being brutal as I could make it.

Charlie · #45 (**permalink**) 06-19-2003, 02:49 PM

Perry, I hope we can meet up sometime. You are geographically close and I would like to get a look at those Autolites! That is a very cool setup and I bet . . . brutal as hell!

427 S/O · #46 (**permalink**) 06-19-2003, 02:52 PM

Sounds good, I will be relocating to the Georgia coast soon. I enjoy fishing as much as riding.

pderouss · #47 (**permalink**) 06-19-2003, 03:06 PM

Real 1

If you were a Real expert you would be able to back up your conjectural opinion with some factual evidence.

Here are 3 facts:-

1. By the time the Cobra emerged AC had existed for over 60 years and had produced, or continued to produce, a wide range of products ranging from railway rolling stock to invalid carriages.

2. AC only produced Cobras for Shelby for 4 years of its 102 years of existence ( so far ).

3 The majority of other established European sports car producers who were manufacturing in the 60's adapted and survived. This includes makes such as:- Morgan, Lotus, Bristol, MG, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Maserati, Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Porche, BMW, TVR, Mercedes and Daimler. Those that did not survive are Jensen, Triumph, Austin Healy and Sunbeam, with the latter three being killed off by corporate rationalisation. The survival ratio looks like around 80% to me.

I would welcome any counter arguments based on expert factual opinion.

SSS · #48 (**permalink**) 06-19-2003, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Charlie

... I owe a lot of my success to the great craftsmen at ERA who put together a nice "kit" to work with. ... I would match the quality of my car to any professionally built factory car any day. That doesn't mean mine is better, but I do take offense to the notion that a home-built car is necessarily inferior to a factory-built car.

On a similar note, my house was built by "professionals", and they throw things together so recklessly, it's a wonder houses manage to stand up anymore. I'm not implying that Cobra manufacturers don't build their cars properly, but "professional" is a relative term.

As I have been saying, it's the design and components that make the Cobra. That's what makes ERA one of the best.

Charlie · #49 (**permalink**) 06-19-2003, 04:09 PM

SSS,
I would also add that it is the attention to detail and quality that makes the difference. A factory is building them for profit. At no time did I say to myself "I am spending too much time getting this thing or that thing just right." That is simply devotion to quality and detail. I don't doubt that there are many good builders out there, but I doubt they have the same level of dedication to quality that many DIY builders have.

And I know what you mean about house builders. That's why I built my own 4 car garage too!
Charlie

Excaliber · #50 (**permalink**) 06-19-2003, 05:03 PM

SSS,,,,makes a strong point about the build quality issues.

"Home built" can be about as good as it gets, exceeding in some cases a "professional" build.

WHO the builder IS is everything! I have no doubt about the quality of some of them, don't know about others and there is no way in hell I'd let some of them build MY car.

Take Shelby for instance, I believe the quality of workmanship and warranty etc. is excellent, a good choice of builders. DV and Don Scott come to mind as "excellent". Kirkham? NO question about quality there! There are many others great builders out there.

I guess you could buy enough parts to build your own car. If I was going to do that I would PREFER to buy a real "kit" where all the pieces actually FIT if you follow the "instructions".

Anything else is not really a "kit" in my book, it's just an assembly of "parts" you figured out how to put together. Hmmmm,,,,kinda like C.S. did when he started building the first Cobras, they sure as hell weren't "kits"!

Ernie

Bart Carter · #51 (**permalink**) 06-19-2003, 07:14 PM

I look at it this way:

You have a basic kit - You need to supply parts to complete it.
You have a delux kit - You need to supply parts to complete it.
You have a roller kit - You need to supply parts to complete it.

You have a car, fully completed and ready to be licensed without further work. It is not a kit. But can be built using a kit.

Scott Smith · #52 (**permalink**) 06-19-2003, 07:40 PM

Must be a full moon.

If it's got a CSX number in it's MSO, it's real.
If you have to scramble as to how to register it...

Well as Elaine said, " fake, fake, fake..."

It's funny how so many situations in life are mimicked
in the Seinfeld series.

avanti-176 · #53 (**permalink**) 06-19-2003, 08:39 PM

Once again I am stunned at how fast a simple post has degenerated into the REAL vs. KIT debate. Now most of the posts I read on these threads I find somewhat amusing but I have to say that wheather or not he meant it that way I find Terry Lee's post possibly the most offensive,elitest condescending post I have ever read on this site. Talk about a slap in the face of 95% of the people here. I know alot of guys think that Evans posts are condescending but if you really read them they are not. He will fight to the death as to whether or not his car is a REAL SHELBY COBRA (which by the way it is) but I can't think of a post where he has actually put down someone else's car. He has his beliefs and opinions and he sticks to his guns without personally attacking(as far as I can tell) the ones who question him. For that I respect him.

Terry -as for your post I hate to tell you but I have seen an awful lot of Home built ERA's,Contemporary's, Unique's and even FFR "KIT CARS" that I would take over an SPF any day. Not to say that SPF's are not good their quality speaks for itself but just because it was assembled in a factory does not mean it is any better than an FFR that someone spent countless hours and love putting together "JUST RIGHT". Ever heard of a Yugo,Pinto or Gremlin? They were factory built!

Oh yeah....I would take a JBL "kit" on the Track over your SPF every day.

Sorry about the Rant guys but that one really got under my skin.
everyone have a good one,
Dan

p.s. This probably stems from the fact that I just finished my round of golf by bogeying a 570 yrd par 5 that I was on the green in 2, GRRRR....

Jackffr1846 · #54 (**permalink**) 06-20-2003, 06:39 AM

Come on, you guys. What's all this heated arguement about semantics. When you're parked someplace and a father and young son come walking over, all wide eyed and the father reverently and respectfully asks if it's an original...or real Cobra, or a kit, you know exactly what he's asking. Is this one of the actual, legendary cars that he saw as a kid in the 60s, on some rare occation roaring along the road or race track, or is it not. As proud as I am about my car that I built myself, painted myself, wired myself in my garage, it just ain't old enough to be a real or original one. If you don't want to call it a kit, that's fine. But if it's not over 35 years old, don't kid yourself about what it is.

REAL 1 · #55 (**permalink**) 06-20-2003, 09:48 AM

Its clearly documented that AC was near financial collapse when the "Texan" came along at just the right time. Whether they would have collapsed no one really knows but the case is a strong one they would have fallen into that 20% you have calculated. Perhaps one major reason for their survival was the Cobra and the fame it brought to the company. Sounds logical to me. They surely weren't a world renoun automotive mark prior to Shelby.

Question: Based on the fact that the original Cobras came in sans engine and trans and were finished by Shelby would they be considered kit cars today? Hmmmm. Very interesting. No????

Expertly yours.

Excaliber · #56 (**permalink**) 06-20-2003, 10:03 AM

While some may have "survived" there far from "thriving", and their "presence" in the USA is tiny (if that big).

I haven't seen any new MG's, for instance for a very long time. The word "Morgan" for me conjurs up a very old sports car with a wooden frame, ha ha. I don't currently know anyone who drives a new "Bristol". I did see a fairly new Maserati the other day (their kind of ugly I think, not at all like the old days).

TVR is a cool car, somehow they managed to hang on over the years, but it's not like their burning up the market. Austin Healeys are still being built, fiberglass V-8's, I don't think there "real" (uh oh, theres THAT word again). LOL

All though AC is still "alive" I think it's been on life support for a very long time. Without the Shelby connection I do believe someone would have pulled the plug a long time ago. But one way or the other it really doesn't matter that much to me who survived or who didn't, thats life. Business' come and go, always have, always will.

Ernie

JAM1775 · #57 (**permalink**) 06-20-2003, 10:35 AM

I have seen CSX cars arrive at a CSX builder. They must be built from the ground up. ...every wire, every bolt, every bracket, every rivet, every bushing, primer, sanding to paint ..... taking months to build . I have seen this 20 times if I have seen it once, often 2-3-4 at a time, in process, being built from the ground up. These are built by the best qualified Shelby builders but built from the ground up just the same. Awesome cars. I have seen CSX cars also built from the ground up by private owners or purchased it privately as a kit. I have seen ERA's purchased privately as a kit and built from the ground up as well as those built from the ERA factory. Awesome cars. I recall one of the nicest Cobras I had ever seen , a 428 powered Contemporary built using only stainless steel screws, bolts, rivets. The guy was a laid off Aeronautical engineer. Nice single garage. What skills !! Awesome car. I have seen 4-5 Uniques built in 1995/96 from from the same Shelby shop years back, from a kit, from the ground up. Awesome cars... still running strong and looking great. I have seen SPF's require attention that surely avoided serious accidents..flaws, requiring replacement, recall or at times welding. Still Awesome Cars. . Thankfully we have a mechanic in our area that lets very little pass his eye on any Cobra he puts his wrench to . Then we have those folks who own the solidly built cars ....who simply do NOT stay on top of their vehicle , things come loose , break etc. Nothing to do with the build but perhaps much to do time, driving, racing or just Cobra vibration and power. My FFR was built by a race shop. It is a solid suspension/ drivetrain and has been solid for 4 years. No doubt less money...no I would never compare it to cars costing much more...it is what it is. It is well built, quick and makes me proud when others notice it and ask ANYTHING about the Ford Cobra or my replica. I log on this forum mostly because I am not driving but also to exhange information and to learn. I know my experiences pale in comparison to what some folks know about Cobras. So I log on.......then.....most of the time I see how the threads deteriorate. I respect guys like Avanti - Dan who say " GRRRRRR". Why ? ..because he is absolutely right.
I have logged on here since 1996/97. What has happened to this forum in recent years puzzles me . That is why I log on less each time.. Good call Dan...no need to say you are sorry.

Bud Man · #58 (**permalink**) 06-20-2003, 11:30 AM

Great post, Jam.

There may be hope yet.......

Bud

Whaler · #59 (**permalink**) 06-20-2003, 01:01 PM

Most have an inhouse company standard that all cars are done to and then wham it gets sent out and shipped off. Sneaking past quality controls are another issue.

I re-did stuff on my car because it wasn't what I would have done, expected or even liked the look of.....as DIY builders we each have a standard. Some will meet or exceed or own personal levels of quality and craftsmenship and some won't.

Tim

Buzz · #60 (**permalink**) 06-20-2003, 04:33 PM

For me, nuff said on the "real vs. kit" issue but I do have a point of friendly debate for Evan. I submit that Shelby was not the only company to build Cobras. They were the only company to build SHELBY COBRAS. AC built and sold several AC COBRAS with the COB & COX serial number prefixes for sale in Britain and other countries. I may be mistaken but I think production of those Cobras continued after Shelby pulled the plug on the CSX cars. There are some that say there was no such thing as an AC Cobra. The rationale of that escapes me.