"Is it real?"

[btsai]

Let me see if I can steer this question in a little different direction.

Is there a proper/preferred way you LIKE to be asked about the origins of your car. I am pretty knowledgable about the cars and the manufactuers -- heck, I even used to have an original Arntz brochure.

I usually approach an owner by not asking "is it a kit" or "is it an original" ("is it real" really does seem a little dense -- of course it's real -- you're standing right in front of it!), but rather, I ask "who is the manufacturer of your car"?

As an owner would you find this offensive? I try to give them the opportunity to tell me about their car first before I make assumptions.

Also, if they were ever to say it's "real" or "original" -- I'd probably raise my eyebrows a bit. I've NEVER seen an original on the street (other than at Barrett-Jackson and the like). Closest thing is a mid-'80s AC version (aluminum body, etc. -- nice car, of course) here in town.

On a semi-related issue, I surprised myself a few weeks ago. Saw a VERY nice car at the local cruise in. Asked the owner which manufactuer. It was an ERA. Then he told me he had a side-oiler. THAT'S when I gave him the really big "wow".

Okay -- I've rambled on long enough. Chime in.

Ben

[avanti-176]

Does not bother me a bit. Means the person has a clue. Is it a kit ? does not bother me either unless it is said with an attitude, by someone driveing a damn '78 camaro, primer colored with air shocks and a Holley that is to big for the choked off mid 70's motor to use without getting rid of 3/4's of the plumbing and boreing the thing at least .40 over. These are the same people that think my AVANTI is slow because it was made by Studebaker and think my Contemporary is full of VW and Fiero parts.

Damn it I was out for Happy hour 45 minutes ago and having a great time. I have to stop looking at this thread.

We are all here because of one thing... the obsession with a specific car...The SHELBY COBRA...2% of us own the REAL thing.
The rest of us (me included) own the next best thing, a tribute, and arguably a better car. Some of us (Evan,Turk, ect,) bought one with a new CSX number because they wanted the real thing. They got the REAL thing and will realize it better than the rest of us (like it or not) come RESALE time. I don't care, I got my Contemporary because I have have wanted a Cobra since I was old enough to understand AUTOMOBILE LUST. Since I don't have 100-500,000 dollars to spend on a CAR I did the best I could and I don't regret a second of the 800+ miles I have on my REPLICA. I also Hold no grudges against the guys that can afford Kirkhams or CSX 2000 thu 4000 cars. I consider myself a CAR guy, Not a Ford guy or a Chevy guy or a Mopar guy or a Studebaker guy but A CAR guy plain and simple.

I don't understand it in Religion,I don't understand it in Race and I don't understand it in Automobiles. No one is better than the other just different!

There is Good and Bad everywhere. All we can do is try to do what is right and hope that others will do the same.

I for one like Cobras!! Shelbys,ERA's,Superformance's,FFR's,Contemporary's ,Unique's,B&B's, Shell Valley's, JBL's,CR's and whoever else I have forgot. Ford Motors,Chevy Motors,Mopar Motors.As long as it looks ,sounds and acts Like a Cobra it is good with me!
The Cobra is simply the Sexiest Car ever made! Why spend time arguing whose is REAL and whose is not...
GET IN THE DAMN THING AND DRIVE!!

I will get off my soap box now, Everyone have a good one,
Dan

[REAL 1]

Avanti176: Nice post. Well said.

Buzz: You are right. AC did make Cobras to the specs developed by Shelby in 289 and 427 deriviative. They were indeed called AC Cobras in England as they were permitted to be called, through licensing permission from Shelby and Ford which has long been taken away.

A car company or a talented group of guys (ie..Kirkhams) can always physically copy the specs and the car down to the smallest detail. Its the licensing rights that make can the product a genuine Shelby or Cobra. A talented group of guys could copy and build a 1967 Corvette but the only genuine Corvettes are those with the legal Corvette badge and title from Cheverolet.

Those AC Cobras built and licensed as Cobras in the 60's are still Cobras today because they legitmately hold the name. The new Autokraft MkIII's are not Cobras because legally they can no longer carry the title and the name.

As to what is REAL, it comes down to legalities. Its that simple. The only genuine Cobras are those that legitimately wear the coveted badge and CSX vin#.

[Back in Black]

Cost just as much as a Kirkham or Shelby. Mine did. I could have spent even more if I had wanted a sideoiler or other super custom features. Some of us wanted something other than original, and that costs too if done right (new, premium components)... same for many other custom "rods", which I have seen offered for sale for up to $500k, if they were really "gold plated".

[BO DUTCH]

Quote from Real 1,

"As to what is REAL, it comes down to legalities. Its that simple. The only genuine Cobras are those that legitimately wear the coveted badge and CSX vin#."


Evan,

That is very simple, maybe too simplistic.
If you were refering to the CSX 2---- and CSX 3-----, I would buy your staement, unconditionally !!
Just because it was given the coveted badge of CSX4--- does not give it the same prestige as the REAL CSX2 & CSX3----.
It is common knowledge, I'm sure you'll agree, that the "New" Shelby Cobras are assembled parts from many suppliers, some being "Cobra" parts from Shelby's competitors.

Perhaps the term of a "REAL Contunuation" is more fitting to the CSX4000's being the lineage is somewhat removed from the origional Real Shelby Cobras.

If I may be so bold to equate the Shelby Cobra as a family, the CSX2---- & CSX3----- as brothers, the CSX 4---- (alum.) as a half-brother and the CSX 4---- (glass) as a step brother.
I mean NO disrespect to the Shelby family, cause the step-brother could kick my A$$ just as well as the rest of the family !!

If Caroll Shelby authorized a CSX Number to a WV Bug, that would be the Bastaard child for sure, BUT, would it be a REAL Cobra ?


Bo

[trularin]

Wise man say, "Put mind in gear before operating mouth."

One thing is clear, I have a great number of replies when asked this question.

I like, "It's a custom." or "Real? Real what?"

Thanks

[blown]

is it real leave such open territory my car is still in the garage im not done with it yet but i have a blown 33 ford coupe glass body when they ask is it real i say of corse if not it would be a giant pic.and look at them like there stupid . i agree know what you are asking before hand but i also hate the jerks that have a ffr that they didnt fit and finnish but painted and you try to talk to them and they blow you off .

[pderouss]

Excaliber.

Maybe you should travel a bit more then you would have the pleasure of seeing all these fine cars on the roads. When I lived in the US and Canada I used to see lots of Linclolns, Mercurys, Cadillacs, Oldmobiles, Chevrolets, Plymouths, Dodges, Pontiacs and Buicks.
I don't see them anywhere outside of North America. Do they still exist?

[Back in Black]

The antique cars and hot rods of every description come out to play. Yes they are still here in spite of everything the various states and cities have tried to push thru to ruin the fun of cruising.

[427 S/O]

Some of the 'smart ass remarks' I read here in truth, are here and only here. No way you folks (say you) talk to people this way without getting a good 'smacking'...

Just raised different I guess?.

[REAL 1]

Bo Dutch: Sorry. I disagree. You are mixing apples and oranges.

Do the original series Cobras carry with them more prestiege than the new Series? Yeah. Sure, no argument there. But not because its more of a Cobra. Its because its the original series and has the respect of "time" and being of very limited number.

The original series were made of up of parts from different suppliers too. So??? What does this mean. Every car is a assemblage of parts.

The original series are "Cobras" because they legitmately were given the "Cobra" name and badge and were a product of SAI. That is a legally protected title and and mark. Even the new Autokraft cars can't legitmately sold or marketed as Cobras today. I'm sure they as does SAI use suppliers that are different than were used 40 years ago. So??? The cars nevertheless remain identical which is an amazing achievment.

Yes, the new Cobras are properly referred to as Continuation Cobras. Why are they "continuation" Cobras? Because they continue the lineage of Cobras from SAI. The people whose hands fabricated many of the parts, body and chasis are, as one would expect different from those hands that did the work 40 years ago but the specifications are identical. But the title and name the car legally carries remains the same and properly so. "Cobra"

You see, it is that simple.

While other cars manufactured by Shelby in forms other than the classic Cobra roadsters carried the name "Cobra" also such as the Daytona Coupes, your example of givng the name and title to a VW bug carries logic to absurdity. Such an example proves nothing.

While we can't forcast the future, it could very well be that years from now the original 4000 series Cobras, representing the return of Shelby's classic legendary cars will carry even more panache' then they do now.

I can tell you this. Nearly without exception when people learn the car is a Shelby Cobra from SAI they do not seem the slightest phased or disappointed that its not the original series. Nearly every person is in awe of the car when they learn its a REAL Shelby Cobra from SAI to their exact '65 specs. In certain ways its even more intriging than if it were a vintage series car. You are looking at a "new" 1965 Shelby Cobra brought back in a time warp. Pretty cool.

[casaleenie]

Bo Dutch,


Real 1's new count...

1 posting stating his position

603 postings defending it...

"a time warp", science fiction to most people but factual to Evan....Pretty cool!!

[BO DUTCH]

Real 1 Esq.

Our thoughts on this subject are not that far apart in reality !

I guess the major disagreement is the approach you've proceded with, that being very simular to a Kalifornia Governor (Politician). If you let them talk long enough and loud enough they will eventually counterdict themselves. Logic is like a corkscrew, they will keep twisting it and twisting it until they think it fits, but in the meantime they forgot what the origional question was !!

Oh, may want to choose another phrase other than;

" Nearly every person is in awe of the car when they learn its a REAL Shelby Cobra from SAI to their exact '65 specs."

Are you saying that there are NO upgrades to the 4000 series over the 3000 ? Maybe breaks, suspension or even maybe frame wall thickness ?
Exact, means Exact, not close to or simular to !
Another political assumption?

As for mixen apples and oranges? Nah, we have a box of Apples only ! Some of them are red and some green, but them's All apples ! Shelby Cobras are the Apple of my eye, no matter what color they are !!

Hang in there buddy, we'll get to the bottom of this yet !

Bo

[REAL 1]

Bo: My car is exact. Yes. Frame wall thickness is thicker (like my skull ) but the outside dimensions are exact. The brakes are the same in my car being Girling repros. Some guys opt for Willwoods and 17" wheels though (not me). The suspension is the same dimensionally. Sure some components are better being made out of chrome molly or billet then they were in the 60's. Also there are some improvements in such things as lines, brake pads, wiring (but not gauges if you use the Smiths ).

While the components in many cases are made better they are dimensionally the same.

When I say "exact" I am referring to dimensions. Not quality. I will concede that the 4000 series is a better car than the 3000 series.

You win.

[SSS]

Sorry to nit pick, but how can you define the "exact" dimensions of a Cobra body when no two originals were the same?

I'd say all this talk about "real" and "kit" and "replica" is pointless, but there is a reason for it. If you go and spend a bunch of extra money to get the "real" thing, that had to have been a very important aspect for you, and you would therefore remind everyone of it. As others have said, the name Shelby cements the value of the car. I'm sure if we could all legally call our cars "Cobras" we would.

Still, many people tend to assume that a "real" Cobra is actually better quality and better performance as well, which is widely known to not be true. I think this is one reason why people are peeved by all the bickering about it. Also, people like me spend <$30k for a car that 99% of people can't tell the difference from an original. That's the great thing about Cobras replicas.

[427 S/O]

On the mark SSS, and let me add, reading the SAI web site on the 4000 series, they said $20.000 of the $60-$100 costs is the privilege of using old shels name...Heck!, for $20.000 I can purchase almost 4 of his aluminum blocks.

[REAL 1]

Hmmm. I wonder what the mark up for the priviledge of driving a Cobra in the 60's was???

By the time the car is complete by the dealer the cost of the priviledge amounts to less than 20% of the overall cost.

While some of the original bodies varied as to fender width when the narrow hip 427's came out for a limited time they were all otherwise pretty much the identical.

The 427SCs were all identical as to body.

[Bud Man]

I'm with Evan on this one.

The argument that there is no such thing as a 'dimensionally accurate' Cobra is simply unfounded. Look at period photgraphs taken at AC and Shelby American during the actual manufacturing of the cars and you will see that they are pretty much all alike. While hand made, they still followed the same set of patterns and body bucks. Years of driving/racing and bending fenders, front/rear ends, etc., as well as owner alterations took their toll, and while today there appear to be several shapes and interpretations, they just did not start out that way.

Actually though, Evan, from an exactness standpoint, I think the Kirkham is more accurate than the Shelby 4000 Series. I say this because I believe Shelby elected to upgrade their front A-arms with adjustability that the 3000 series cars (and Kirkhams replica) omitted. My car is an earlier unit, and like your's features the Girling style calipers and solid rotors. but retains the original one-piece A-arms. The Kirkhams also still employ the original fuel tank set up, while Shelby uses the 18 gallon cell. Splitting hairs, I know, but what the h--l......


Bud

[BO DUTCH]

"Shelby Cobras" have a pedigree that all other replica mfg. are striving to replicate.

For example: A pedigreed Horse, Dog, Cow, Sheep or Cat are highly prized, and are expensive because of the heritage and lineage. These animals are aquired through accredited breeders of quality stock. If you are not concerned with heritage, lineage or pedigree and just want a pet around the house you'll shop at the Pet Shop or the Pound or a friend who's dog got knocked up by a neighbors stray.

It all boils down to what YOUR want and needs are and how much your willing to spend for your desires.

Don't knock the The Pure Breads because they are out of your reach today, you may be in that market in the future, then you will have to eat crow !! I know, cause I'll remind you !!

The old saying,
"Don't get mad at a person who is smarter than you ................ it isn't their fault."

Evan, do we agree on this ??


Bo

[SSS]

Bo, I can't agree with your analogy. A thoroughbred horse or dog will look better and perform better than a stray. This isn't the case with a Cobra replica. The only thing different about an SAI versus any other replica is the Shelby and Cobra names. Any other replica can be built with the same (or better) looks and same (or better) performance. Lineage and pedigree are only names if they don't give you superior looks and performance.

For me, it's not a matter of how much I'm willing to spend, but how much I can afford to spend. I can wait 15 years and buy a $60-$80,000 car, or buy a $30,000 car today. Easy choice! Considering that 99% of people will ask me if it's "real", I don't think you could define it as a stray. How many burros have been mistaken for race horses? BTW, I don't find that having more money makes a person smarter.