Aluminum Jaguar, Aluminum Audi - Page 2

David Kirkham · #21 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 05:48 PM

Sizzler,

The aluminum Taurus has been "in the works" since I was in college--15 years ago. Aluminum is just not as easy to work as people think...hence, to answer Brett's question...the price.

It is one thing to have a body already made for you and sitting in pieces in front of you. It is a whole different world to make that body fit and look nice on a frame. We figure 1/3 of the time is making the body; 1/3 of the time is welding all the body panels together; 1/3 of the time is MOUNTING the body on the frame.

Fluidform may hand you the body in pieces (not nearly all of them, I might add), but you are not even 1/2 way there. (Not to mention their presses are ALL over $500,000 to purchase--even for the small ones.) You have to make a lot of aluminum bodies to pay for that one machine which only gets you 1/3 of the way there. The other 2/3's is similarly priced.

David

CSX 4039 · #22 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PatBuckley

David - Bolte has a Panelcraft replica.....he's just suffering from Kirkham envy.

No, it's by Bruce Kimmons, and, I just don't appreciate getting side swiped for no reason at all.

Tom Kirkham · #23 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 07:23 PM

The process is called super plastic forming. This was first used by Panoz. Morgan also uses this process on thier new car. The new Ford GT is also going to use this process. This process has been thought about for a long time on Cobra bodies. However dies are as David said $$$$. We were quoted over million several years ago. One problem with superplastic forming is that the best alloys for superplastic forming are extremly difficult to weld.

CSX 4039 · #24 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 07:28 PM

So, do they pour molten aluminum into a mold? Or press it cold in some press? How do they get a three dimensional frame if they are pressing it? Weld a bunch of two dimensional pieces together?
It was a legitimate question...

CSX 4039 · #25 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 07:36 PM

Pat Buckley-
What specifically did you do get spiff up the shine on your car. It looks great. I'd like to shine mine up a bit more before sinking the big bucks into Zoopseal. Not that I want it to be a mirror like yours, although I think that that's cool. (I would just want to do that on my second Cobra

). But really, what SPECIFICALLy did you do and use to get a shinier shine?
Once again, honest question...
bb

Jamo · #26 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 08:14 PM

Willie

Then you'd hate the H&Rs on my Audi. I do agree that the XJ's dampners are a fine compromise, but Audi has leaned that way a bit with the new A8L--while BMW just keeps screwing around with styling extremes and giant whoopie cushion electronics.

Course, given the fact that you have little in the way of rear padding, while I enjoy the luxury of having mass amounts of it, it would seem that if we both do really rely on our seat of the pants feelings--we should expect to differ on which has the optimal settings.

PatBuckley · #27 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 08:21 PM

Bolte-

The sideswipe really wasn't - it was more of a deflection based on your sideswipe regarding Mr. Kirkham....

The polish on my car was pure elbow grease mixed with a lot of varying grits of sandpaper - starting with 120 and ending with 1200 grit. The final shine was done with the use of a buffer and some aluminum polish.......it only takes about 150 hours.

Pat

BTW- I think you car is a Panelcraft based on the rake of the windshield and the rear fender lines - I asked SAI about that and they agreed. FYI

I think Panelcraft makes great bodies too - nothing wrong with that!

CSX 4039 · #28 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 09:08 PM

Wouldn't be the first time SAI had incomplete paperwork. The original owner says it's a Kimmons. I guess I'll have to track him down again, see if he's got pics or something. Anyway.
BTW- the cheap shot I was referring to was Kirkhams cheap shot about doctors. Totally out of left field. My question was an honest one. All I ever hear about is how damn hard it is to beat out a Cobra body, and Audi is making the whole darn thing out of aluminum, and Jag is making a HUGE body out of aluminum and selling the whole luxury car for the price of an aluminum Cobra, built by anybody. That was not an attack, hell, my car had a huge $ ad for American (or New Zealand/American) labor. I just don't know much about the making of cars unibodys, or whatever.
Thanks for you interest in my car. I like yours, too. Love to see it in person sometime. I'm sure photos don't do it justice.
My car was cloned off of CSX3056, but I heard they polished that one? Is that true?
You don't need to defend David. He's a big boy.
Any particular aluminum polish? AutoZone has 3-4 of 'em. Or, doesn't matter...
Can you buy the polish in bulk? They stuff at AutoZone is $3 for an itty bitty tin can. Would need 10 cases of it..

ToyCollector · #29 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brett J. Bolte

I just don't know much about the making of cars unibodys, or whatever.
Thanks for you interest in my car. I like yours, too. Love to see it in person sometime. I'm sure photos don't do it justice.
My car was cloned off of CSX3056, but I heard they polished that one? Is that true?
You don't need to defend David. He's a big boy.
Any particular aluminum polish? AutoZone has 3-4 of 'em. Or, doesn't matter...
Can you buy the polish in bulk? They stuff at AutoZone is $3 for an itty bitty tin can. Would need 10 cases of it..

And your point is?

Tom Kirkham · #30 (**permalink**) 07-10-2003, 12:42 AM

Brette,
What makes a Cobra different is the amount of draw and reverse curves the Cobra body has. The Cobra body is also one piece. Of course the hood deck and doors are seperate. But the cars you mention have seam lines, removable fenders, less draw, and of course, much smaller (if any at all) reverse curves. For example the area between the headlight and the radiator opening takes a real craftsman to make. Also like David implied the Cobra a method of wraping the aluminum onto the support tubes. Modern compaines do not wrap the body around a tube to hold the body on. They use glue, rivets, bolts, etc. As David said wraping (mounting the body on the frame) takes about 1/3 the total time in making the body. Also the Cobra body has a wired edge. No modern company wires the edges in their bodies. It takes a full day to wire the fenders in a Cobra. As you can see, having the body panels shaped is just the begining of the battle. It takes real craftsmen to put the body together and on the frame. Sure you can go to Mexico or wherever else, but it takes time, money, tooling, training, equipment, real craftmen dedicated to the project to build the car and of always more money.

For body forming search Google on Super Plastic forming.

Aluminum frams are built several diffent ways. Pouring molten aluminum into a die is called casting. I know of no manf. that is casting aluminum frames. Lotus for the Elise has their frame extruded and then bent into shape. They then glue the frame together. Renalt uses extrusions and rivets and glues their Spyder together. I believe Jag, Ferrari, and Audi are pressing some of the frame pieces and joining (spot welding, gluing, or riviting) the frame together. Some of the manufactures, I belive, are hydrofoming aluminum tubes like what is done with the Corvette with steel. Hope this helps.

BANDIT 1 · #31 (**permalink**) 07-10-2003, 07:41 AM

JAMO:

Not to change the subject, however at the bottom of your post it says "Shelby invented it. Kirkham perfected it!".

Shouldn't it say:

"Shelby re-invented it. Kirkham perfected it!"

I would also like to thank the Kirkham's for once again giving their time to help some of us learn about the assembly of Cobra's...