For all you Formula One bashers out there....

Fred Douglass · #1 (**permalink**) 07-20-2003, 09:04 PM

...lay your eyes upon a tape of this morning's Silverstone British GP. Taped or early Monday (set your VCRs for 1:00 am). It was a stupendous event! Passing---yes PASSING, and wild passing at that! Wheel-to-wheel dicing. Rubens v.s. Michael (and I won't give it away). Even discounting the kilted LEW-NIE running against the grain...it was one of the wildest GP races I've seen in years. I read David Davis editorial on how tgo "fix" F1, and he has a lot of good points---BUTT they were ALL rebutted by this one race! There were 7 or 8 lead-changes, 12 or more completely WACKO passes in the "S" bends! Well worth taping over some old sit-coms you'll never watch anyway.

SPEED-CHANNEL

aumoore · #2 (**permalink**) 07-20-2003, 11:34 PM

FI cars are great if you are into electronics controlling everything. The cars are super fast but IMHO they have taken over almost all the drivers duties with electronics. Anti-Lok brakes, clutchless shifters, traction controll, etc. The drivers just steer the cars now. I would like to see the drivers have to use one hand for shifting and the left leg for using the clutch. Ditch the ABS, Traction Control and let the driver control the car like Jacki Stewart, did back in the day.

Most of the drivers from 20 years ago could adapt easily to todays cars with the electronic driving aids but could todays drivers drive the old tech cars and compete with the old drivers? Some could but I bet many could not.

They should combine some of the IRL, CART and F1 rules and come up with a happy medium and hold a Real World Championship at the end of the year where the top 12 Drivers from each series compete at three races. One race at the top track of each series. Now that would be fun. Kind of like IROC but with better cars.

David Kirkham · #3 (**permalink**) 07-21-2003, 06:28 AM

I think F1 is cool. I would prefer some rule changes so there is more racing and lead changes though.

David

wilf leek · #4 (**permalink**) 07-21-2003, 06:51 AM

aumoore - no ABS on F1 cars, but you are right about the electronic aids like launch control, traction control, semi-auto gearboxes etc.

Don't denigrate the drivers though, most if not all of us would be blacking out from the effort of piloting one of these cars for just one lap at full racing speeds.
The drivers are definitely not human - their ability to drive within tenths of a second for lap after lap of tracks like Spa or Monaco is just amazing. Never mind thinking about race strategy/tyre wear/engine settings/the totty they lined up for after the race at the same time.
Terrific physical fitness and mental abilities.

The main, almost sole, reason for the lack of passing we have seen in the past is the aerodynamics on the cars - get within 50 foot of a car in front and all of a sudden you are unable to stay with them around corners because of the disturbed airflow, and you start to wipe out your tyres. S'why so much overtaking happens under braking only.

Having said that, the British GP was kinda different, was it not? More overtaking than I saw in the whole of last season, and a Driver's Championship still totally wide open.
The chap in the kilt was a little off the wall though.

Wayne Maybury · #5 (**permalink**) 07-21-2003, 07:09 AM

Every form of racing has it's positive and negative points. F1 has become rediculously expensive. As Wilf said, passing has become difficult due to aerodynamics. I would personally like to see the reliance on the driver increase by limiting the electronics, lets say they have to have a manual gearbox and clutch for example.

If we look at Nascar, the costs are lower but they are constantly running under the $#@%%$# caution flag. Some guy gets a flat, no debris on the track, the yellow comes out and everyone is in the pits. Absolutely crazy, let them race. Here we see the opposite of F1 as far as modern advances go. Pushrod engines and carburators? Give me a break, these are antique items as far as race cars go.

The F1 race at Silverstone was very exciting. Lots of wheel-to-wheel action and unbelieveable passing even if some wacko did manage to get onto the track which threw all pre-race strategy out the window as far as pit stops were concerned.

Wayne

CowtownCobra · #6 (**permalink**) 07-21-2003, 07:19 AM

I seem to be hooked on F1 even though I can't quite understand why. All the techno and aero stuff really takes the driver out of the loop. That said, I still watch every F1 race I can, which is more than I can say for NASCAR...

And by the way, why don't they just go ahead and rename the Speed Channel the NASCAR Channel?

Chifo Jr · #7 (**permalink**) 07-21-2003, 08:51 AM

I think that you may have overlooked the premise of F1. It is to be the epitome of automotive technologgy. While I can certainly appreciate that many of the developments have diminished the drivers input, it has placed the development teams and engineers in the limelight so to speak. Being an engineer, I find the technical aspect very interesting.

Trans-Am Jim · #8 (**permalink**) 07-21-2003, 09:43 AM

IMHO (FWIW)

Racing has always had, and, I believe, will always need at least one arena where technology can be implemented regardless of cost. For the time being, that arena is F1. To balance rampant technology and the quality of racing is one of the many problems of the rulesmakers, and F1 seems to be doing a better job of it this year than in the past few.
I have had the great fortune for the past 3 years to be chosen as a US delegate to work with the FIA technical scrutineers at the USGP in Indianapolis. These cars, beyond being technical marvels, are (IMHO) the finest representations of functional art you could imagine.
To watch the in-car footage on SPEED of a lap at any of the F1 courses and say that they drive themselves and the drivers are not a significant part of the overall package is just foolish, iff'n you ask me!
And, I like and watch NASCAR, too. It's just a different form of racing, that's all! Enjoy the differences and don't try to compare the two.

Excaliber · #9 (**permalink**) 07-21-2003, 10:07 AM

Passing? In F1? OK, who in the pits cut a deal with the other teams to allow that?

Seems like the only passing that has been done in the last few years was when a driver was "ordered" to slow down so his team mate could win.

Having a spirited race, with REAL passing is a breath of fresh air.

The MOST awesome pass I ever saw was an F1 car sideways in the corner just after passing and coming in to "hot". The driver sawing on the wheel, drifting the car sideways beautifully. Jackie Stewart announcing the race yelling into the microphone, "He's gonna loose it, he's gonna loose it". But he DIDN'T loose it, my mouth was hanging open. Simply put,,,,,unbelievable driving talent!

By the way, cost is becoming a factor in F1, there are fewer teams able to compete each year.

I hope this "passing trend" is not a passing fad!

Ernie

Venom 427 · #10 (**permalink**) 07-21-2003, 10:31 AM

I have been watching F1 since the early 80's and over the years the arguments between the protagonists and antagonists on any implemented changes and the future of F1 has been as interesting as the racing. Gives one something to do and focus on during the week and between races. Maybe this has been the success of F1, with due consideration to the Great Bernie. Now it has finally hit the Cobra Forum !! Great stuff. From what I have read this argument played itself out through the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and now into the next millenium. The switch from front engined to rear engined cars. The high wings on the Lotus's in the late 60's from Chapman. The Brabham fancar and 6 wheeled Tyrrell of the late 70's. The turbo 4 cyl. of the 80's. The aerodynamics, driver-aids and revenues of the 90's. In this early part of the decade we see the same issues as we left the 90's with. What next ? We are currently seeing a wave of longitudinal assymetry on the cars.

When I read about the technical developments on an F1 car I am amazed every time. Numatic valves and wide angle V's. The new brake drums (??) on the Ferrari. Chifo Jr summed it up - "I think that you may have overlooked the premise of F1. It is to be the epitome of automotive technology". This form of motorsport can be likened to the Space Race. The innovation that is realised from F1 does find its way into our everyday cars. I scoffed at this suggestion in the 90's but today we have ABS, launch control, semi-automatic transmissions with steering-wheel paddle shifters. The engineers of our cars would not reseach these luxuries and neccessities as they would be too expensive.

What makes it possible in F1 is the huge sources of revenue generated. Budweiser just paid $80 million for a couple of 1 foot decals on the side of the Williams. Where would $80 million have taken them in Nascar, IRL or Cart ? So why F1, because of the huge following worldwide and F1's influence of those followers. Whether they be protagonists and antagonists of F1 or any aspect of it, they keep on watching and talking.

Did you see Gordon's face when he stepped out of that Williams after his testdrive. He was amazed by the technology and its implementation. BTW I was very impressed with his drive and results. Many American drivers have tried their hand at F1 and not succeeded. He did good and I would love to see him in a race.

Well I say let them push the limits of automotive engineering. Not many other forms of motorsport do. Who knows what we will be driving in 2010.

Fred, you are right that was one epic race on Sunday. Took my mind back to Senna/Prost/Mansell. It is worth sitting through 10 average races to see one like that. Once you get on the inside of F1 you are hooked as it is the best scripted reality show in the world. Hey I actually feel like a Bud after that !!!

wilf leek · #11 (**permalink**) 07-21-2003, 02:57 PM

There is something about F1 which gets you "hooked". I am constantly amazed at the effect that race strategy planning can have. Those that are good at it consistently get their drivers an advantage - ever wondered just how Schumaker (M) seems to always make up places whilst in the pits??

The one thing that amazes me is how anyone can believe that the drivers have some kind of easy time because of electronic aids. It is just not so.

Just watch some in-car footage some time, and look at the in-corner corrections being made - all the time - these cars are pushed to the absolute limit. Aerodynamic downforce means awesome cornering speeds, and the last time I watched F1 cars run, my eyes could not actually react fast enough to track them as they braked - I always "overshot" them. The braking is just so late and so hard.
Also - think on this: Downforce drops as speed bleeds off, so the drivers have to modulate the brake pedal accordingly or they will lock up. Rather a skill to do that every corner, every lap, and get it right.

Nope - these guys are immensely skilled and talented drivers, I take my hat off to them. (not my Gashole hat though, just a metaphorical hat).

aumoore · #12 (**permalink**) 07-21-2003, 04:03 PM

Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart might make the F! cut but they do not have a car big enough for Jimmy Spencer.

FI is pretty cool but at least make them shift the car.

CowtownCobra · #13 (**permalink**) 07-21-2003, 07:02 PM

Wilf,

Got to agree. The in-car shots are amazing, and the driver is VERY busy. This last race was maybe the best F1 I have seen in the 20+ years I have been watching them. I just wish Bernie watsisname would let a real video crew cover the races. One whole lap without cutting away to some irrelevent shot,,,,thats all I want, just one whole lap once in a while.

And I don't mean to knock NASCAR, but I sure wish they would run more road courses...

Excaliber · #14 (**permalink**) 07-21-2003, 07:19 PM

There is a rumor NASCAR may soon be running more road courses. The fans have been asking and it seems someone is listening.

Ernie

Venom 427 · #15 (**permalink**) 07-21-2003, 08:11 PM

I don't know too much about Nascar, but there was one down at the local Home Depot last year that I took a close look at. What's up with that steering box ?? If they go road racing surely they should consider putting a rack in them.

CowtownCobra · #16 (**permalink**) 07-22-2003, 11:01 AM

I would like to see NASCAR alternate at Indy between the speedway and the F1 road course. A year on one, then a year on the other, and so on...

Excaliber · #17 (**permalink**) 07-22-2003, 01:41 PM

A steering "rack" in a NASCAR? If you do that what comes next? A V-8 and rear wheel drive in a Taurus? Remember it's a "Stock" car.........

Ernie

Carroll DeWeese · #18 (**permalink**) 07-25-2003, 09:06 AM

The Silverstone British GP was so interesting that my wife actually watched with interest. As a result, we already have tickets for ourselves and friends to watch the USGP in Indainapolis. My wife has never been so excited to go to a car race.

I think that she partly got interested in watching me drive Formula Fords at racing school. Open wheel road racing is in a class by itself. The F1 cars are reacting a little over 3 Gs. Amazing.

I would like to see more road racing in theis country -- open or closed wheel. Hopefully NASCAR and others will do more road courses.

Venom 427 · #19 (**permalink**) 07-25-2003, 09:33 AM

Ernie, You were right. What was I thinking !!!!

pderouss · #20 (**permalink**) 07-25-2003, 01:20 PM

Having had the opportunity to attend many NASCAR and F1 races I would always choose NASCAR for the sheer excitement, especially on the short tracks (Bristol etc) and the Superspeedways (Taledega etc). In addition to the action on the track Nascar also wins in terms of the friendliness and approachability of the teams and drivers. The only trouble is that it doesn't come over here to England though we are trying to develop a similar concept called ASCAR and some of my friends have built an oval speedway at a place called Rockingham. I will upload a photo of the cars at the last Rockingham race and also a shot of the winning Ferrari from last weekend's FI race.