Epoxy paint or snap together tiles for the garage??

[427 S/O]

I prefer the slate style, a heavy roll around tool box is a little aggravating on the diamond plate.

[luke-44]

RMS 427 - in your situation where the floor stain/sealer was coming up, the Racedeck overlay was a very good fix.

Still curious as to the Racedeck cost per square foot....

For any of you interested in some more detail on acid etching and the reasons for problems that have been documented earlier in the thread, I am presenting below a copy of the more detailed reply I have sent out via email to various people who contacted me.

Like all things, there is a right way and a wrong way....hope this helps...

"What it comes down to is this - the floor must be a) - roughened up to achieve a mechanical "bite" similar in texture to a fine/medium grit sandpaper (rub your hand along a #100 grit sandpaper), and b) - clean and dry.

The acid etching (dilute hydrochloric acid - commonly called "muriatic acid and available cheap at Lowes or Home Depot - read directions carefully - dilute as directed - - wear gloves and eye protection!) method actually works by "attacking" the Portland cement paste which binds the aggregate (fine sand and coarse stone) together. There should be a slight "fizz" and the acid will turn "whitish" - this means it is working when you pour it on. It is important to "scrub" it in real good - get a coarse 8-12" "scrub brush" on a painting pole and bring lots of "elbow grease"... and don't be afraid to repeat a few times - you really can't over-do it. The top 1/16" of concrete is primarily the "fines" mixed with cement paste, so the surface etching can achieve this sandpaper effect quite well if done with care.

Other methods of concrete prep include mechanically abrading the surface instead of chemically 'attacking' it - essentially blasting away the weakest parts of the top surface layer. This method is touched on in the thread earlier...This method is generally more consistent, and does not have the safety issues (wear rubber gloves and goggles when handling the acid! - rinse any splashes on skin thoroughly with water).

Acid etching is less expensive than shotblasting - especially if your time is not a factor. Mechanical abrading is more consistent , but requires special equipment (called a "shotblaster" - a self contained machine that vacuums up the spent shot (special hard sand) as it goes- kind of a specialized sandblaster for floors) that not even most rental shops carry (except the contractor-only type places).

The problems with acid etching, and the reasons for the "failures" people talk about, are as follows:

a) - disposal of the spent acid - diluting by flushing with lots and lots of water can be a problem...can you rinse it out somewhere? Most common is to flush out onto the driveway and to the drain on the street. By flushing and diliuting the heck out of it, it isn't as hazardous as you may first think...you are dealing with relatively weak acid to begin with, and the flushing dilutes it even more. Check your local regulations.

b) - inconsistency - not all areas of the floor will react universally -some areas require re-doing - high points, low points, more cement paste (ie stronger floor surface needs more attention), etc. Don't hesitate to repeat as necessary. Surface prep is 2/3 of the time investment for this job - the coating work itself is the home stretch.
c) - neutralizing the effects of the acid (lots of flushing water). The residual acid MUST be removed with lots of flushing water. I rented a 5hp Honda high pressure blaster for this part - worked great.

d) - not allowing the floor to dry before commencing the coating work (the easiest test method to check is called the "mat test" - simply tape a piece of 18" x18" plastic on the floor with duct tape and check 16 hours later for presence of condensation under the plastic - if present, the floor isn't dry enough) There is no reason to get on it too soon unless you rush....)

e) - assuming "etching" will "clean" a floor - which it doesn't. These are separate steps - an oil saturated floor must be treated before etching. Check again at Lowes or Home Depot for TSP (tri sodium phosphate) based solutions, and scrub well - oil penetration can be 1/2" deep or more on an old floor.

Surface prep can be "outsourced" to a specialty contractor -with a
shotblaster. Rates will vary from as low as +- 20 cents per SF, but usually small jobs like a 400 SF garage floor will likely go for more. Worth looking into however, and weigh it against the "do it yourself acid approach". Try to find a guy who can "fit you in" between jobs. It will depend on local availability of a contractor with the equipment and the desire to do a small job - most guys with this gear do larger industrial jobs. Look under "Concrete Restoration" .or even "Concrete Finishing" in the yellow pages .
The "finishers" don't likely do this kind of work, but might point you in the right direction.

[Ron61]

Leadfoot,

When I put my tiles in I glued some old carpet that I had to the sharp bottem edges of the lift and you can't even see it but that will stop it from even making a mark on the tiles. The same for the jack stands except I just cut a square of the carpets, put glue on the stands sharp deges and set them on the carpet overnight. I can't find my bill on what the tiles cost me, but in answer to the above posts about having a professional do it. I did that twice and paid dearly for a mess. The last bunch took a week to do it and then told me when the dam stufff cracked it was caused by earthquakes. This was from what was suppposed to be top line professional installers who worked for one of the major companies. And also in fairness as I said above in an earlier post I have seen people who have had it done and it lasted for years. I also like the idea that I can remove the floor in a matter of an hour. Some of the people after seeing mine have gotten small areas of this tyle and take it with them to car shows to snap together and park their cars on. There is good and bad to most things and I just think I am better off by far with the tiles.

Ron

[Bill Wells]

after self applying concrete paint to prepped surfaces, even when new , cured and not driven on, the paint would always seem to 'lift' under the tires and then wick out to areas where tire tracks were. i tried rubber pads under the tires and same problem, just a little longer before it showed. after 6 yrs of every other year adding a new coat of paint i contacted a professional two part epoxy coating firm that does industrial sites and custom garages.

they came in and used a media blasting machine, using bb's, to get the 6 layers of paint off the floor and properly prep the concrete surface underneat the paint, removing a very fine film of concrete surface material as well. then a two part epoxy was put on the floor, after several days of drying/curing another two part epoxy coating was applied. after several more days of curing a clear urethane coating was applied using clear silica in the top coat for non skid protection for safety and liability.

the floor maintains, now 5 yrs later, a lustrous shine looking wet and mirror like. it has been impervious to all fluids , including acid. i have dropped heavy tools on it and no chipping. despite 5 winters of detroit winter salt droppings, rain, hot tires etc the floor looks brand new today..except for one stall where someone did a 4 wheel burn out with stones in the tread and 'etched' scratches in the surface...long story, don't ask !

i could not be more pleased with the results, when done initially and now so long after. every now and then i swipe a mop over the floor, squeegee the water to floor drains and wipe down with toweling and voila, brand new wet look again.

the key is the prep. friends have tried several do it yourself epoxy processes following prep recommendations and have had limited success in long term liveability. my media blasting prep seems to have done the trick compared to their results after 9-12 mos.

just another opinion....see my photo gallery for floor pics in my garage....

oh yeah, i am told they would come back and 'rough up ' the surface of my one stall with the 4 wh drive scratch marks and recover with another top coat of urethane and it would look like new again too...it just doesnt seem to be on the top of my list as i suspect if a 4wd burnout was done before i t might happen again, as same driver still uses that stall....no comment.

i have seen the tiles and the decking material but have not had anyone that i know attest to its long term usage, the votes have not yet been cast. but they do look good too... bill.

[RaceDeck]

LeadFoot: Yes we have a dealer in Canada who stocks RaceDeck, saving you in shipping and duties. Please feel free to call us anytime for informationa and dealer info at
800-457-0174
www.racedeck.com

[Robert Evans]

A couple of comments:
One other thing that must be mentioned is that no matter how well a concrete surface is abraded for texture, if it is allowing vapor emission from moisture under the slab, very few coatings will adhere, especially not the do-it-yourself water based epoxy coatings found at local hardware stores. A moisture test is imperative, and if ANY moisture is present, forget about epoxy coatings.

If your concrete is old enough that there has been excessive oil stains or grease imbedded into the concrete, no amount of acid washing will remove the oil and your only solution to preparing the surface is by mechanical means. Shot blasting in Calif. runs anywhere from $.75/ft. for very large jobs to $2.00/ft for smaller jobs, such as a 2 car garage. Most have a $700-$800 minimum charge. Shot blast units can be rented for about $300 + per day for the small units.

The gouges in the RaceDeck tiles that were mentioned previously were caused by objects that would have left marks in any other types of floor coverings also. Sharp jack stands can leave marks in epoxy also, but the advantage to RaceDeck is that if one is ever damaged by sharp objects, it is a very simple process to repair it in just a few minutes; you don't have to call out a contractor to re-do the area for you.

Regarding the lifting under direct sunlight; because RaceDeck is a floating floor tile it will expand slightly in direct sunlight (especially the dark colors like black or Graphite) it is recommended that a small 3/8" gap be left at the outside edges for expansion. The best method of installation is to open all doors and expose the floor to direct sunlight, then trim the edges of the floor when the floor is at full expansion. The tiles expand very little when hot, but when you have a floor that is upwards of 30' wide, you may experience expansion of as much as 1/2". This is easily corrected by properly fitting the floor in the garage. Call me if you have any questions.

The new generation of RaceDeck floors were engineered specifically to roll tool boxes and caster-wheeled items across the floor easily. Every floor, including epoxy, requires some sort of slip-resistent texture, and RaceDeck incorporates that along with easy cleanability such as moping.

I cannot give you a specific quote on the pricing of RaceDeck here, but I will tell you that it is comparable to that of a professionally-installed epoxy floor coating, plus it carries a 10 year warranty. You will need to call your local RaceDeck rep for their particular pricing in your area. RaceDeck can be reached at 800-457-0174, or 866-789-5927 in California.

[rms427]

From what I found the Racedeck is going to cost $3 to $4 per square foot installed. That assumes you will install it yourself. The installation is very easy. The cost difference is the amount you buy, delivery charges, tax and how many tiles you end up cutting to make it fit. I cut the tiles with a radial arm saw and hand held jig saw. A table saw would be better than the radial saw since you could set it up for a number of cuts and then just do it. The only screw ups I had is that a few times I cut the wrong color tile for a specific location. In most cases I was able to salvage part of that tile for another location so it really didn't cause much of a loss. The tiles are directional so that when you cut a tile you may or may not be able to use whats left in another location. I found that with some planning I was able to use what was left of tiles I cut in other locations. But you will have some waste no matter how you do it unless you don't have to cut any tiles.

[B+L FFR1686]

Maybe a group buy, or just a straight-up discount for members would be great!

[Guinness]

rms427,
I'm sure I know which car you did not leave outside the garage over night. I'll call you when I'm home for a visit to check out your floor. I'm planning to do floors and cabinets in July '04.
Jeff

[Ron61]

I bought 510 square foot of the tile plus 21 feet of the edging and it came out to just $ 2.78 per square foot. This is without the shipping and taxes which pushed it up to about $3.09 per square foot. I use a table saw to cut the ones that I needed to cut and it worked great. I also used a rubber mallet to snap the tiles together as my hand started to hurt after about 30 minutres of hitting them to make the snaps go together. I did the whole garage in about 6 hours and that includes, breaks, walking about 100 feet to the shed where the table saw was and just some general messing around to take pictures at different stages of install. And no, before someone asks, I am in no way associated with racedeck. I just found something that works for me and I like it and this was in answer to the original question.

Ron

[Don]

Have just started to determine the direction on re-coating the garage and workshop floor. Had previouly used a paint companies product, promises/advertising, after proper prep, was at opposite ends of the actual results, not even close, a lesson learned. lasted 18 months.

Obtained three bids for 885 sq ft. from commercial/industrial flooring companies that coat floors as their primary business. All will shot blast ( Blast-Trac ) and grind the concrete .

Vendor A:

$1,829 or $2.06 a sq ft. Mentioned three epoxy coatings, did not specify product etc., etc

Vendor B:

$2,395 or $2.70 a sq ft. Primed with Hi-Gloss epoxy primer. Final application is pigmented , 18 colors available, Dur-A-Gard. At additional cost not specified, a Poly-Thane top coat is available to increase chemical and stain resistance

Vendor C:

$2,900 or $3.27 a sq ft. First coat of Hallemite's HE 250 Resin 100% solid epoxy at 8 to 10 mils with poly beads added to form a non-skid service. Top coat , Hallemite's HU 1185P Polyester Urethane Epoxy, 22 colors available. Top coat is chemical resistant urethane and will protect from black tire marks

Summary:

Vendor C had the most complete bid including with the bid detail spec sheets and performance criteria on the product that would be used. Area to be coated is not all clear as the oil tank location and furnace area will require hand grinding.

Does anyone have experience with these products and offer suggestions on additional questions and clarification ?

[B. SMITH]

IT'S TUFF TO GET THE COST OF TUFF-DECK...........
400 SF OF BLACK AND WHITE WITH BLACK BORDER... HOW MUCH PER SF, APPROXIMATELY??

B. SMITH

[Robert Evans]

Don, The only advice that I can give you regarding an epoxy floor that is installed by a contractor is:
Make sure that a vapor emission test is done first without fail, then make sure that whatever brand of epoxy/polyurethane they use, be sure that it is solvent based. Only the primer base can be water based, but the 100% solids epoxy and the polyurethane top coat must be diluted and mixed with a solvent such as MEK or Acetone, depending on the climate that you live in and how quickly the product needs to cure. Water based coatings are not suitable for garage applications and will not resist many of the chemicals found in an automotive environment. The basic rule of thumb with most coatings is that the longer it takes to dry, the more durable it will be. Epoxy's that dry very quickly are either water based or are poor quality. Most solvent based epoxy's and polyurethanes take at least 12-24 hours before you can even walk on them, and about 7 days to fully cure. Some are designed to dry much quicker, but they are more costly and unnecessary for a garage application.

It looks like the first two quotes that you got are for a single color application, while the third looks like it has vinyl chips added. The whole process should take about 5 days, with another 5-7 days cure time before it can be driven on.

Vinyl chip floors are fairly durable for medium duty use, but if you have a heavy duty requirement, then the ceramic/quartz filled floors are best, but they will cost you somewhere around $5.00-up per s/f. Don't confuse ceramic/quartz with a "Granite-look" floor, which is nothing more than vinyl chips added for color. Ceramic/quartz is actually a ceramic aggregate added as a filler with 100% solids epoxy. These are extremely durable and are approved for use in restaurants.

As for pricing on RaceDeck tiles; Due to the fact that new RaceDeck dealers are being added almost weekly, I cannot quote pricing on the internet. We are an exclusive dealer for RaceDeck in the California and Las Vegas areas. There are areas where we cannot sell RaceDeck due to exclusive territories, but feel free to call us at TuffDeck, Inc. toll free at 866-789-5927 PST and we can either direct you to a dealer in your area or give you a quote. We never sell at retail, but do offer a Club Cobra discount.

[bnewell]

I had Nature Stone applied this past April over top of my badly cracked cement floor. They guarantee it for life against cracking and water/salt will not puddle on it. Maintanence is very easy.......just hose it out. Price depends on the condition of your existing floor but runs approximately 6 - 8 bucks a sq. ft.

[jazzee]

I've got a garage where the floor was never sealed and when I leave impervious stuff on the floor, like a plastic storage container, there's a dark spot that is slightly damp to the touch. In the winter when it rains a lot, large portions of the floor turn dark and moderately damp (no standing water) and when it dries a dust starts to accumulate on top so I have to frequently sweep it. There are also salt stains that are coming up. My floor also sank about a 1/2" on one side leaving a 1/8" crack down the middle. I recently had it slab jacked to make it level again.

I was about to go through the hassle of applying a densifier/sealer to reduce the vapor transmission from about an estimated 10 to 3 and then apply an epoxy coating but then I ran across these Racedeck tiles. While the costs of the tiles is much higher than doing the coating (for do-it-yourself) I'm beginning to think it may be a better long term solution, especially if my floor cracks some more.

My main concern is putting the tiles over the floor without sealing it as I am not sure if moisture and dust build-up under the floor over a long period will eventually cause problems. Of course I could look at the tiles as a sealer in themselves, with the densifier, the water transmission is stopped about 1/8-1/4" below the cement service, whereas with the tiles the transmission is stopped on the surface. Still, it appears the tiles leave a gap of air space underneath. Without a way for the vapor to evaporate I'd be scared the tiles would start to float a little!

What does everyone think? One of the attractions of the tiles is that it will probably take less time, than cleaning, sealing, and coating the floor. Less mess. Easier repair. Etc. Etc. If I still have to clean and seal it, then time wise it will be a wash but I don't want to end up with problems in the long term.

[Ron61]

Jazzee,

I have had no problem at all with the tiles and moisture. The gap they leave with the honey comb under them is not air tight and moisture can escape. In fact, shortly after I installed mine I ran the washing machine over while I was gone. When I came home I had water and soap suds about half way across the garage. I just wiped the top off and thought I will wait a couple of days as it is hot and see what happens to the water that went through the seams. About a week later I took up the line of tiles closest to the washing machine and there was a little water left, but most of it was gone. So while I had the tiles up I just took a rag and wiped the little that was left up. And out about 2 feet out from the machine it was already dry. I am sure that the weather and humidity will cause a difference in the way this would have dried as it was quite hot here at the time.

Ron

[Traveller]

Here's a word in favor of epoxy coatings.

I did my garage 4 years ago and it still looks great. No tire pick up and no peeling.

As said many times on this thread, preparation is the key to a long lasting finish.

Second most important is the quality of the product you use. There are many brands, but it MUST BE A 2 PART EPOXY (hardner and pigment).

The beauty of epoxy is its resistance to chemicals, particulary solvents. I have stained furnature in my garage and gotten stain all over the floor. All I did was take a rag with thinner on it and wipe it up. It cleaned the stain and didn't do jack to the floor.

You can see my floor in my photo gallery.

[Bill Wells]

iinteresting comments about the tiles. i can only imagine how much fun that would NOT be in detroit with salt/slush/mud/grit for 5 mos a year. guess now i am glad i have the epoxy coating. as my earlier post on this thread said, many years so far and floor is like new, as pictured in my photo gallery. guess the tiles would be better for fair weather climes vs detroit winters. . bill.

[Ron61]

Bill,

I agree with you about the tiles. In some places they would not be the best. I had two professioonal floor companies come in and do my garage with the 2 part epoxy and all the prep work. One time it lasted about 2 years. The 2nd company told me the first one did it wrong and they did it right and charged me twice as much. Theirs lasted almost 3 1/2 years and I had spent enough on those two floors to build a garage twice the size of mine. So in my case, the tiles have been a great thing as we don't have a lot of snow around here, but do have tons of rain. But as I said, in a humid and damp area I don't think they would be as good as the epoxy, and especially if you don't have to have it done over every two or three years. I am in no way pushing the tiles over the Epoxy or the other way around. I would have had an Epoxy floor if they could have made one last. I haven't had a problem since I put in the tiles and I can take them out easily if I want to.

Ron

[Double Venom]

still deciding!
DV..it's gotta be right!