New Shelby Cobras?? - Page 4

RedCSX · #61 (**permalink**) 10-20-2003, 02:45 PM

Terry and Kobra,

The auction is done by Paul Andrews, One of Shelby's bigger dealers, in more ways than one. He is a nice guy. Its more of a ad for the SA CSX's that he is selling, by the way he has sold quite a few of them because of that auction. You may also notice that he has an Auction going for a CSX3000 1966 427 model right now as well. I am currently waiting for my SA CSX to arrive. scheduled to be here in December. I like the ERA as well as the Superperformance cars, but if you look at them top to bottom, The Shelby is a much better product. I know of which I speak, have studied this issue for the last few years. Sold my 67 GT-500 to purchase one of these Cobra's. We will find out how good my plan was when it arrives. But so far all indications are that its a better product that what came out of Vegas facility for about 20K less. My dealer, Mitch Hughes was just in Vegas for a delaer meeting and said the final product is very close to the 75K aluminum and will arrive with more options that originally thought.

Morgan
Fresno

ST · #62 (**permalink**) 10-20-2003, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RedCSX

But so far all indications are that its a better product that what came out of Vegas facility for about 20K less.

Morgan
Fresno [/b]

I've seen the SA car up close, it's NOT "better" than the rollers produced in Vegas by SAI.

craigayl · #63 (**permalink**) 10-20-2003, 04:00 PM

What????

“I like the ERA as well as the Superperformance cars, but if you look at them top to bottom, The Shelby is a much better product. I know of which I speak, have studied this issue for the last few years.”

Morgan

Sure glad you have enlightened ups! There have been hundreds of us studying pros and cons of the many replica manufactures for many more than just a few years,,, and now!!! You have the answer!!! Thank goodness!!!

Please pass along all the data you have accumulated that draws such a positive conclusion. Oh yes, I and I’m sure the rest of CC would also be interested in your data regarding the many manufactures you have not mentioned..

Again…. THANKS!!!!

Craig

RedCSX · #64 (**permalink**) 10-20-2003, 04:28 PM

My evaluation, As I said, I really do think that the Super Performance and ERA are well made cars, I would throw a couple of others in the top five as well, kirkham of course being one of them. But I currently think that the frame structure and suspension are better than the ERA or Superperformance . I think the Ind. Suspension is superior to the ERA and Superperformance. The Shelby will come with Baer brakes all the way around. The autometer guages are better quality than the Smith repo's they have. The toe box will now be larger. Will come standard with leather seats where in the past with Shelby this was a big cost upgrade. I have good friends who have owned ERA's and they have told me that they would opt for the Shelby at its current price. Again at 39,900, why wouldn't you choose the Shelby over the ERA and the Superperfomance? And hey this is my evaluation and what I see. So please share with me why you see it different.

take care,
Morgan

Excaliber · #65 (**permalink**) 10-20-2003, 05:15 PM

Morgan,,,,,it's your opinion, lot's of us have one. I think the new SAI CAV cars are GREAT (based on what I've seen and heard only)!

To state it's a MUCH better product than the ERA or SPF does stretch the credibilty factor. I'm not yet convinced it's that "much" better.

For the price? With the CSX number? Yeah, it MAY qualify as "much" better for SOME, not for others.

IF I was shopping right now, no question where my money would go. SAI CAV, which would be the best buy for ME. I might be a little intimidated parking it next to an ERA however, there an awesome car!

Ernie

TerrysSPF · #66 (**permalink**) 10-20-2003, 05:28 PM

RedCSX: .......what Shelby dealer do you work for???
I'm not knocking the new rollers - haven't seen one (wish I could!!!). I HAVE seen the alum. cars however,(Kirkhams) and they are a heck of a car........and you're saying these 39K glass cars are going to be right up there with those? Wouldn't that tick-off the current CSX4000 glass owners that paid a higher price for their car, and got a lesser product (by your definition)??
How did you research your car before placing the order? Where did you see one, and was able to conduct years of research on a car that has yet to come out??
I heard the Autometer guages are White and have Shelby's name splatered all over them. They may be more reliable than the Smith's, but what happened to authenticity (it IS a Shelby!). I think the inside of a SPF looks more authentic than the new Shelby does!
Show me car number 100-150 and THEN we'll discuss the quality. All that's out now are proto-types that have been assembled to be the best it can be (for the money) and to try and make some sales off of. I can't even find PICTURES of these things on the internet, for cryin' out loud! The Ebay ad doesn't even have a picture of the car! Show me some photo's of the frame, suspension, body,........anything! I think they're still in the production phase, and maybe even a little embarrassed to show whats coming off the line as of today. Not up to standards, perhaps. Let's get the ball rolling, Old Shel!!! People will need to get their orders in soon to have them in time for spring!

Excaliber · #67 (**permalink**) 10-20-2003, 05:31 PM

What? You missed the pic's of the SAI CAV posted here on CC sometime ago by Turk? I'm surprised!

Ernie

RedCSX · #68 (**permalink**) 10-20-2003, 05:51 PM

Terry,

I don't work for any dealer, Been to the Vegas factory many times as well as spoken with Carroll and the guys there many times. Written articles for the Norcal Shelby Club. Done open track, etc. I am by no means an expert, Sorry if my previous notes came out wrong. But, The ERA(great car in its own right will cost more that 39999. by the time you are done, Right? The Superformance is a little less. So my point that I was making is that for the money, Shelby is the way to go right now. Your right there isn't as much information as there should be but here is some links. And Excaliber made a good point did you see the two cars side by side? CAV done Shelby and the Vegas Shelby? As far as the Kirkham is concerned, I rate it #1, but will never be able to afford it. Think I would go for the Superformance Daytona coupe first. In fact that was my first choice out of them all. Just couldn't afford it?

http://www.shelbyautos.com/

http://www.newportshelbycobras.com/hotnews.htm

computerworks · #69 (**permalink**) 10-20-2003, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TerrysSPF

I heard the Autometer guages are White and have Shelby's name splatered all over them. They may be more reliable than the Smith's, but what happened to authenticity (it IS a Shelby!).

Terry.. the white-faced gauges are part of the 40th Anniversary series, and not used on the standard product.

TerrysSPF · #70 (**permalink**) 10-20-2003, 06:48 PM

Computerworks: Thanks for the clarification! ....actually, those guages look pretty cool....and I can't see Shelby's name on them! Does anybody have pictures of the guages used in the new rollers?

Ernie: No, I didn't see the pictures Turk put up! Is there a "search" I could do to find them?

RedCSX: Thanks for the sites. I've been to Shelbyauto.com, but not the Newport Shelby Cobra's site. That one was a little better, but I'd still like to see some photo's of the car broken down (frame off) so you can see the frame, suspension, etc. The picture of the car they show may not even be one of the "new" S. Africa cars (probably isn't!). Remember the first Tucker? It was a "roller" too! -ha! ....just needed something to show the "fans"!

I sent in for some info on the cars (from Shelby) and I'll wait to see what comes. Believe me, I hope it IS a better car for the money (especially MY money!). You can't go wrong with competition; it makes everybody better.....or GET better to keep up! We ALL win when that happens!
I would like nothing better than to have 3 mfgr's to choose from in my price range, instead of 2 (SPF and ERA....although ERA is pushing it - and worth it do doubt). It makes things more interesting and gives the buyer more leverage.

computerworks · #71 (**permalink**) 10-20-2003, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TerrysSPF

No, I didn't see the pictures Turk put up! Is there a "search" I could do to find them?

Terry.. I did a comparison photo post a while back...

Look here for the thread...

craigayl · #72 (**permalink**) 10-20-2003, 08:07 PM

Morgan

A few points…

First. “My evaluation, As I said, I really do think that the Super Performance….” It’s Superformance, not Super Performance
Next. “I currently think that the frame structure and suspension are better” Why is that? Do you see a disadvantage to the more rigid box frame structure?
Next. “Shelby will come with Baer brakes”. Do you have data that shows Baer to be better than Wildwood in a replica Cobra?
Next. “autometer guages are better quality than the Smith repo's”. First, the Smith’s are not repo’s, their original. As for quality, I’m not sure you can make that argument. You could argue new technology vs old, less expensive, more readily available etc., but the Smith’s were not selected for these reasons. These cars are “reproductions” and to some, the esthetics are very important.
Next. “The toe box will now be larger” I don’t know about others, but Superformance enlarged their foot well to accommodate tall drivers several rears ago.
Next. “Will come standard with leather seats”. Again, I can’t speak for others, but Superformance has always had leather as standard.
Next. “Again at 39,900, why wouldn't you choose the Shelby” I could just as easily ask the question “at 39,900, why “would” you choose a Shelby”.

The problem with trying to justify one replica vs another is you’re not taking into account the owner and what they want in or out of their car. The needs of the owner are as varied as manufactures themselves.

So, you chose the CSX. Fantastic! Freedom of choice is alive and well. Keep in mind, the same is true for the rest. It would be presumptuous for anyone to think they had the corner determining what is best for the rest.

We can debate pros and cons all day long on specifics. In fact, debate often brings new knowledge. But, on what is best? Best needs to be determined on an individual basis.

Craig

Excaliber · #73 (**permalink**) 10-20-2003, 08:18 PM

Thanks for the link Ron. I could a' swore Turk posted some others too. But I like the comparison pics you posted.

39K for a Shelby? E Gads,,,,I'll take TWO! Yeah, I wish!

Ernie

TerrysSPF · #74 (**permalink**) 10-20-2003, 08:28 PM

Ron: Thanks for the info on your thread! It IS a nice looking car in that photo. Do you know of any interior / dash shots to be found anywhere?
I guess I'll just have to wait to see one in person before making a decision. I have to admit, at 39K it's tempting to go with JUST for the name alone (and you've got to figure they wouldn't be putting out garbage), BUT, is it up to SPF / ERA standards? Both those companies have gone through the trial- n- error associated with putting out these rollers, and have improved upon their products over the years from this experience and feedback they've recieved from customers / dealers. I've never seen a nicer paint job than what SPF puts out, and I think ERA's are THE quality replica for those looking for a more authentic look (Compaired to the "perky butted" SPF). I'm a little dissapointed by the wait for an ERA, though. Heck, the market might crash TWICE by the time I got my car! My main concern is Performance (don't forget about SPF's wins in The Run-n-Gun and One Lap of America), and getting the most car for my money. It's not a "investment" that I'm looking to make, or even break even on, money wise. It's an investment in pleasure and regaining something I used to love when I was younger. -60's Muscle, and not playing by the rules!

I'll bet that nobody has one in my area before the price goes up in November tough! I'm a "touchy-feely" kind of guy; I won't buy it if I can't touch it / drive it first! -Just ask my wife!

The Dreamer · #75 (**permalink**) 10-21-2003, 01:28 PM

Red,

Not to pile on or anything, but I have been struggling with the SPF, ERA, Shelby decision as well and there some things you wrote that I don't think are as cut and dried as presented. The Baer brakes I believe offered on the Shelby are 2 piston brakes and not 4 pistons as offered on the SPF. 4 pistons are optional like on ERA.

The "Best" chassis discussions on these forums are really funny and based little on fact. You can NOT tell which chassis is better (pick your criteria-stiffness, strength, etc) just by looking at it. When someone gets the data (testing or FEA), this can be a decision criteria.

On cost, I have tried to create the most detailed (I'm talking about going through summit catalogs for prices of finishing components) cost estimate of all three makes using available info from all sources. The SPF using a small block (because that is more acceptable in a SPF) is about $10-15K cheaper than an Shelby block ERA or Shelby. The difference between the ERA and Shelby is less than a $1K, which I think is well within the error of my estimate.

Why would anyone buy something other than a Shelby? Well, I put down my deposit on an ERA about a month ago because from everything I read and heard, ERA stands for quality. The advantage to me of the Shelby is I could get it quicker, but I have not been able to see one in person (limited availability like everyone else is experiencing), so I can't judge. The CSX # and saying I have a "Real" Shelby (I actually think the "Real" thing is a joke), don't mean that much to me, but it does to others.

If I was a $40K betting man, I would guess the Shelby is going to be a fine car. Better than ERA or SPF, I just don't know, but I would probably have a great time with either. $.02

Dreamer

Excaliber · #76 (**permalink**) 10-21-2003, 01:50 PM

Here is the quick and dirty method I use to test "frame" design/strength.

Using a floor jack I lift the car on one side near one of the front wheel, inboard just a little. IF the entire front end on the car, BOTH sides, lifts nearly the same hieght, you have a stiff and worthy frame! Jack it up fairly high, measure the difference between one front wheel and the other. It should not be very much!

FFR has very little "flex" in the regard. My Excalibur, longer wheel base, etc. had much more. My Austin Healey 3000 never "flinched", pretty much no matter WHERE you placed the jack!

Try THAT with a domestic car. The "other" front tire won't even leave the floor!

Ernie

RedCSX · #77 (**permalink**) 10-21-2003, 02:54 PM

Dreamer and Excaliber,

The benefit of this debate for me as a new member is that I am communicating with you guys. At the Monterey Historics I was at the SPF tent when I ran into a friend who is a GOLD card National Shelby judge, I asked him his opinion of the SPF Cobra, He then grabbed me by the arm and dragged me over to the Shelby tent.
They had an assembled frame set up that we went through point by point. What I like most over the others is the all aluminum Shelby ind. rear end with the Dana center section. I will not debate the quality of cars SPF or ERA puts out, all out standing. I will say that I don't like the design structure of the ERA rear end and I personaly dont think as I said the SPF is as good as the Shelby. I just personally prefer the Baer brakes over the willwood, feel they are more sorted out. Engine wise, I am targeting $7000.00 for a 427 that will put out around 550H.P. at the fly wheel. The majority of the time you see 351's in the SPF, because that seams to be what they are designed for. LOVE the stroked 351, but most people feel that since the car was a 427or 428 based car then thats what you should have. I believe that has an affect on resale. As for as the ERA, I figure that it would cost me at least 10K to 15K more to complete than the complete this CSX4000 model cobra. I ordered in September arrival date set for December. I personally think that is a fairly short wait for a complete painted roller. Should be on the road by the end of January. More than enough time for Shelby does Vegas.

Keith Lyles · #78 (**permalink**) 10-21-2003, 04:02 PM

RedCSX, the last time I rebuilt a big block was 1991. It was almost $8k then and it took a second rebuild to fix all the stuff I thought I was saving money on. Unless you are a builder and have all the parts including the engine, I think your 7k estimate for a 427 is way low. If it can be done, let me know. I have one setting on the shelf.

Keith

RedCSX · #79 (**permalink**) 10-21-2003, 05:20 PM

Keith,

You right I am off, forgot about that very expensive Aviaid oil pan $550 dollars and that Mighty Demon will blow my budget 500.00. and the rocker assembly help put me over 7K. Total will be closer to 9K actually $8949.00.

Here is what I have:

1963 427 Center Oiler.

Short block, machined with 427 crank turned .010, Lemans rods wirh Chevy pistion pins/ Ross Forged Pistons/ True roller billet gear/duble roller timing chain, ARP bolts throughout, polished timing cover. All the oil work done, Blue Printed oil pump and large shaft. $4,200

Aviaid oil pan $550 dollars

Custom ground cam and solid lifters from Cam Research $300.00

New Cobra 427 valve covers $150.00

Blue Thunder single four barrel intake $400.00

Edlebrock heads (bare) $950.00

Porting and flowing of heads and five angle vavle job by Trans Am Racing $800

MSD billet distributor/ignition/coil/ wires $300.00 (such a deal)

Mighty Demon Carb $499.00

Billet Shafts/stainless rockers/springs/valves/ and nascar push rods $800.00 (good to have friends)

TerrysSPF · #80 (**permalink**) 10-21-2003, 05:43 PM

Red: Well, you explained how you came up with the cost of your engine (although that was a deal I'd like to get in on!), but how about telling us how you figured you would spend 10-15K MORE for an ERA than a CSX???

Also, there are plenty of people with BB's in their SPF's. In fact, out of the people I know just in my area, there are more BB cars than SB. I will say, however, that Dean @ Dynamic tends to lead people in the SB Stroker direction (unless you're heart is set on a BB), but that's because he is more of a road course type racer vs. Drag racer / straight line performance. ....Although, I have driven SPF's with BB's and they handle just fine (extra weight or not!)!!