Well, it looks like a licensing issue to me. No question there is an advantage in being able to use the 'Cobra' name, but that doesn't change the cars whether they be from Kirkham, Superformance, or Factory Five. You still have to do the engineering and it isn't like these other companies are idiots and Shelby is actually doing any work.
Ernie's comment about Shelby's involvement meaning a quality car almost caused me to shop for Depends - just two words: Series One.
(Not that I am taking anything from CAV. I don't know anything about them - and I do know that manufacturing a car isn't that big of a deal for a quality machine shop.)
This is basically a LICENSING deal. SAI can get the finished product cheaper and, I'll bet, better from an off-shore supplier.
The sad thing?
Now you all (SAI fans and arguers of the "Original" issue) are buying IMPORTS!
I-M-P-O-R-T-E-D; yet,....REAL! Whoopeee! The Real thing from 1/2 way down under...
As in from beautiful, enslaving, uber-cheap SOUTH AFRICA! (South Afri-k-a to those of the land)
But, that's O.K.; 'cause, the only REAL Cobras were imports, also...or do you still not get it?
Good for you. Now, call SAI and say,"Thanks for driving the value of my car down!" Cause in-case you haven't been reading the latest "Auto-Snobbery" magazines...your "kit" or "component" or "Minus" car isn't a real enthusuasts car to begin with and now this slap in the face...or haven't you heard?
Now, enough of my usual sarcasm...
It's nice to see the posts that suggest that most of these cars are really nice REPLICAS of the cars we all loved when we were kids.
This whole "Who's building the REAL Cobras this week?" thing has only validated the fact that these are all replicas and if you've got to have Carroll's name associated with your car (Why, I'll never know...it's not like his personal performance in the industry has done much for us...i.e..."Can you say,'Series 1?'" as previously posted on this thread) you are going to pay an inflated premium that'll likely be DE-VALUED in the future.
Now, for those of you hiding behind the Romance of the Original Cobras and then incompetently comparing the manufacture and out-sourcing of the current SAI replicas to the sourcing of the original "A.C.'s": Are you Mad? Are you Drunk?
We are all here because the REAL ORIGINAL COBRAS were infact made from completed and sourced rollers of the A.C. Cars Company and, INFACT, were hand formed from ALUMINIUM and, INFACT, were rollers that rec'vd there engines and very few other finishing touches from Carroll and company.
These are the real cars that bit us...the ones with their across the pond heritage...their racing pedigrees...their FIA wins...their ugly "Ace" parentage...not these uber-marketed-prisoner built-multi-outsourced- wannabe-after the fact-only in name-replicas.
Show me any real consistency, outside of Carroll's name, between the old cars and the new cars. Can you guys even name the original trannies, rear-ends and tubing brands? You know, the things that gave the originals their "flavor"? What've ya got? Smiths gages? Al. Haldy wannabe wheels? Replica-wannabe-power-trains?
It's funny, when I was a kid, the 289's would kick the 427's all over the hill and road courses (In the hands of the eventual club racer/owner...I guess you had to be there) ...now we all think the "unwanted" 427 is cool. Yup, the 427 that all the Shelby employees and drivers would laugh at ("I wonder how long 'til it blows up or comes back on a wrecker?"). Which brings me to a point...
The only thing I've seen in this REPLICA industry that really had the Original feel and "flavor" (flavour for those in the U.K. & Canada...) of the original? An E.R.A. FIA replica. It (Actually...on several occasions...they) took me right back to the late 60's & early 70's when they were racing the local tracks of So. Cal.
Yup, an unofficial - ain't got Carrolls name on it but it's more like the real ones than SAI's - E-R-A!
It has the feel and presence of, well...you know...the real cars.
Or...do you?
I think SAI owes people like Evan, who really is an enthusiast with a real car..that's a real replica...in my opinion, a check for dep. value and an appology for their marketing snafu.
In my humble opinion...this is all marketing. And for those of us that know the difference/reality of it all:
The guy driving down the road in his B&B, Contemporary, E.R.A., FFR or SPF REPLICA is just as happy as just as happy as the guy in his SAI (CAV?) REPLICA. It's just that he paid less and got more.
If you don't get it...don't worry...you never will.
Just me an' my opinion(s),
Manny
BTW, there's a reason they call it a forum...you know..."A public meeting place for open discussion". If you're still steaming, go get a dictionary and figure out what the words mean! If you'd done that to begin...ahhh, never mind...you're never gonna get it...are you?
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You gotta walk thru the Darkness before you stand in the Light.
Manny...
I really can't find your point...as much as I'd like to.
I think you are seeing all sorts of sides to a square that don't exist.
It really is a very normal business development...
SAI has outsourced the production of their 'glas-bodied cars. They chose CAV as a supplier because of their high quality capabilities.
As a potential result... they can offer a product at a price point that will allow them to gain market share and attract new customers.
That's what businesses have to do today to survive.
It really doesn't matter if the car is made on the moon... if SAI sells it, it's a Cobra and it's a real Shelby Cobra.... and that has value to some people, but not all people.
Of course.... it's a replica... the 60's are over.
But it's simply a business decision. Nothing more.
Moto
Where in this thread was there an argument about the "original" issue?
What is wrong with the imports? Ford does it, GM does it. So does every manufacturer of autos. Many of the domestic cars we drive are built in Canada or Mexico.
They seem to work just fine.
The value of Taurus does not go down because it was built in Ontario.
Long before the South African Connection surfaced, we all knew we were driving CSX's partially built in a foreign land.
Until someone can prove the workmanship is so much poorer in South Africa, your argument would be chalenged at least by the thousands of SPF owners.
They all seem to be happy with their cars and their quality.
If thE value of Original/Continuation/Replica/Kirkham/Shelby/Reproduction Cobra does go down as a result of the new SA CAV connection, God help those who have lesser cars.
Besides, whoever bought their Cobras for investment rather than enjoyment, should have their heads examined.
What makes you think ANYONE is paying an inflated premium for CS name. A premium maybe, INFLATED....not likely.
Poor Evan, he wasn't even here and he gets it again.
I don't think any of the posts here indicated anyone to be "mad or drunk". Not until now anyway.
To long, to much, I should write a book or something,,,,,,,,,,
Personally I grow tired of hearing about how Shelby had little or nothing to do with the developement of the Cobra.
Yeah right! Like AC had a clue about HOW to build a world class car that could BEAT FERRARI! Like FORD had a clue, building their GT-40 with "dreams" of conquering Ferrari. Nope, Ford couldn't pull it off, they hired Shelby to FIX the GT-40! What did Shelby do to the GT-40 anyway? Basically he took a "complex car" and made it "simpler". Less of lots of stuff! It takes GENIUS to make simple from complex, true in the 60's, true today!
Shelby did for Ford what he did for AC. Made them both WORLD CHAMPIONS, not ONE manufacturer, but TWO! How did he do that? Oh yeah, he hired the right people, put together a team, THEY really did the work, blah blah blah. BULL! I say it was Shelby that was the "core" thinker in this game, and heres why!
Shelby was at the top of his game in 1962. He was among a VERY small group of drivers in the 50's to race internationally. Certainly among the first of American drivers to do so! As the years went by and he drove for the great teams of that era, do you think he might have "picked up" a few ideas on what did and didn't work on a race car? Do you think he was slowly working out what it would take to make a great race car? Talking to the great drivers of his time? Hanging with the great engineers of his time? By 1962 his knowledge of "what it would take" was unparalled at even the highest levels in the automotive world. I believe the "great engineers" of that time and THIS have ONE common problem? To much "schooling" and not enough "seat time". They are in the "box" and they WON'T come out easily!
Society does not REWARD "simple" very often! We LIKE complex! It takes an IN DEPTH knowledge and understanding of a project to take a complex thing and make it "simple". This, in the 60's or today, does not ALL come from "schooling". It takes "seat time". It is a rare thing to find a man with the COURAGE to make it simple. Your friends will see it and think, "Heck, I could have done that, looks easy." Kinda like so many of us say today, "Well, the Cobra IS a simple car after all". And THATS THE POINT!
THAT was the genius of Shelby, he had the "seat time", he understood how important it was to "keep it simple". Fords answer to the Ferrari "problem" was a complex GT-40, it didn't work until Shelby "fixed it"!
Shebly ordered important changes to the FIRST AC (Cobra) car he worked on! HE told AC what to do and they DID what they were TOLD. Heavier suspension parts were among the first changes. It wasn't long before SO many changes had been made it was not reasonable to call the car an AC. It was a Shelby Cobra, a name that had been EARNED. Of course Shelby consulted with his "team", I would have, only a fool goes it alone!!! You can BET it was Shelby that made the final decision. You can BET he got conflicting ideas about WHAT to do and HOW to do it! He had the "seat time", the "smarts" to sort out all the "data" and MAKE THE RIGHT CALL for the project! You can BET he knew that in SOME areas others had more "seat time" than him, and he listened to their opinion. In the end, it's the CEO that makes the call, win or loose!
In his day, he was without peer, truly a world class race car building genius who dared to take on Ferrari and WIN!
So what you think about Saleen? Roush? Other "greats" of yester year or today? You think all they have done is "hire" a great team? All they do is make a few phone calls? Hate him or love him in his day, when he was at the "top of his game", HE, himself, the man, NOT his team, pulled off something so great WE still talk about today!
Cobra Make, Engine: Shelby Cobra CSX4206 aluminum body, original 1965 NASCAR 427 SO, Dual quads.
Posts: 3,897
Not Ranked
To many here that clearly seem to be getting some sadistic thrill over the thought of CSX owners taking it in the neck (primarily me) as far as value of their cars are concerned I would like to point out some simple facts.
1. The CAV produced CSX is glass only. Has nothing to do with Aluminum cars. In fact one might argue it makes the aluminum cars more valuable. My CSX is aluminum.
2. Who cares? Not me. I didn't buy my car for investment value. There are much better things to invest in.
3. I'm not sure if the $39K price is an introductory price but even if it is the regular sale price, you will notice that the price does not include options and the cost of installation and finishing the car. A nicely finished unit even at that price will near $70,000.00. This is squarely in the range of a nicely turned out ERA turnkey and within spiting distance of a BB SPF new from the dealer.
4. My bet is that this is an introductory price. It wouldn't surprise me to see the regular price gravitate up to $45K for a painted glass roller. Still very competitive for those deciding between ERA and SPF.
5. From the announcement thread for SAI it appears there are some slight spec differences. In short it will be the same CSX glass Cobra offered at ERA turnkey prices. Whats bad about that except if you already own a higher end SPF or ERA then your cars value just took a big hit.
6. While the lower price on CAV produced units may have some downward affect on existing glass CSX's values they are going to literally clobber the values of the existing of replicas like ERA, Contempary, SPF and any other replica putting you in the $60K range for a finished vehicle.
Manny: If you can't see the tremendous parallels between the production of the original CSX's and the current CSX Continuation series and the fact that a great many parts of the originals were out sourced also nothing I can say here can help.
Also, I'm not sure what Auto Snobbery magazines you are referring to when you referenced Cobras/Cobra replicas as not being considered a real enthusiasts car. All I know is that our Shelby Cobra is the only car I own that I've seen people videoing while driving next to us. And this happened on more than one occassion. It also draws a crowd and "thumbs up" wherever I take it. Maybe the mags and you are right, not much enthusiasm for the car I guess.
I would also like to echo Ernies last posts. Bravo Ernie! You seem to hit the nail on the head everytime. For those that think what Ernie said above is incorrect you apparently have been spending too much time reading the "Definitive Cobra Timeline".
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Shelby is not selling these cars complete as turn-keys in their showroom. They are still just rollers, and it is up to the buyer to build it themselves, or to go through one of Shelby's affiliates to complete the build.
Why should the South Africa cars have a greater impact on ERA and SPF values than on the Las Vegas CSX glass cars? If the SA cars are just as good or better than the LV cars, I can't imagine anyone paying more for a used LV car than for a new SA car.
BTW, I agree that the aluminum cars are largely immune from this.
1. Who said Carroll didn't have EVERYTHING to do with making the Cobra what it was? Who said he wasn't the one responsible for the car and the dynasty and the FIA wins and LeMans for that matter?
What does that have to do with the "SAI" marketing model of today? A NAME...period...that's all there is to it. Didn't I say,"Licensing"?
2. Evan, you've made a very valid point...your Al. car may very well end up recv'g a better value standard. I think what gets me is the idea of SAI potentially driving down the value of it's own previously sold products. I believe your car is an investment in yourself AND a potentially GOOD financial investment...as long as noone makes any "foolish" marketing moves.
3. Originality is an issue to me! That's who! When we address "Authentic" or "Real" or "Original"- are we not implying and reflecting on the heritage and record of which Ernie speaks?
Hey, I'm addressing the point of what is or is not legitimately a Cobra AND what constitutes a real one as instigated by this latest activity/change at SAI. Think about it...some of us are arguing about the heritage of these things and Shelby's involvement and when, where and with whom it all happened...and then...in the same breath...tell ourselves that, by virtue of a name, these latest in-carnations are sharing that heritage...you've got to be kidding!
The Point: Is history or heritage just a name?
If I don't get it...well...I'm lucky.
Opinions, that's all, again.
Manny
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If you want a little peace, sometimes you gotta fight.
You gotta walk thru the Darkness before you stand in the Light.
Cobra Make, Engine: Heading the 289FIA route, ERA is the choice du jour
Posts: 118
Not Ranked
Anyone hear of any reaction from Superformance, ERA, Midstates, or other fiberglass replica manufacturers?
They have got to be thinking, "Uh, oh..."
Resale value of any fiberglass Cobra replica will be affected by this announcement, no doubt, be it kit, turn-key minus, turn-key, or Shelby.
If it's an investment, better go aluminum (or better yet, go original, right?). If it's just for fun, who cares if it's fiberglass, aluminum, or carbon fiber? That's what these cars are all about, right? Wind in your hair, rumble in the air, smiles, thumbs-up and stares...
Hey, look at that! I'm waxing poetic over a Cobra. This wouldn't surprise my wife...
And, hey, who of you would not want to answer that inevitable question from a stranger by saying, "Yes, it is a genuine Shelby Cobra."
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Anyone hear of any reaction from Superformance, ERA, Midstates, or other fiberglass replica manufacturers?"
I certainly can't speak for ERA, SPF or others, but I can speak with some authority with my wallet of unspent dough - being as I have a 100% refundable deposit currently sitting in New Britain CT on a 289FIA ERA - scheduled for a December build.
I have no plans to change my order as a result of the SAI development. Anybody wanna compare the SAI design - chassis to chassis - with an ERA? The other aspects of the ERA also speak for themselves.
I think Manny makes a very good case. Dilution of the name through licensing. The market will figure out where the value is.
luke-44
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Bruce
Enjoyment may be 9/10's anticipation, but that last 10% is oh so sweet....
Manny, My "to long" post was not directed at you, but perhaps your post was the trigger gelling my thoughts on the subject.
There have been a number of good people, here and outside here, who have wondered just what role Shelby REALLY played in the Cobra developement. Some have stated flat out, he did little or nothing!
,,,,maybe this isn't the right thread for that post, but it is an important issue. How Shelby is preceived by the public and history DOES/WILL impact the value of our "re-creations".
Cobra Make, Engine: Shelby Cobra CSX4206 aluminum body, original 1965 NASCAR 427 SO, Dual quads.
Posts: 3,897
Not Ranked
Speed: I just think that a USA CSX will never be worth less than CAV CSX ie., in the $70,000 range or better depending on finish and equipment.
A $65,000 ERA or SPF in my opinion will suffer comparatively more in value because when given the option of buying a Shelby or brand X replica, most will, again in my opinion opt for the Shelby therefore driving the price of brand X replica down if its going to sell. How much will brand X values drop? Who knows. This is just MHO.
Remember even at the height of CSX prices the most guys had into glass CSX's were around $100K with all the whistles and bells and a killer aluminum block 427. When I priced glass CSX's when I had my ERA a nicely finished CSX with 428 was about $80,000.00. Since '98 the prices actually came down and sales started to pick up.
I'll bet most CSX owners have paid in the area of $80K to $85K after the roller program began for a finished glass car. I think its safe to say even under the expected new $39K roller price it will take $70K to finish the car top shelf with all the right stuff done right.
If I see a used glass CSX done right, built by one of the top dealers, well maintained and its available now would I pay as much maybe a little more for it than a new glass roller 90 to 120 days away? Maybe.
If I'm looking at a used Spf for $60K with a BB and I now can wait 90 to 120 days and get a Shelby Cobra for $70K, do I add $10K and get the Shelby or look to buy the Spf for $35K to $40K to make it worth my while to pass on the Shelby? I would.
Alot has been said here about guys who buy CSX's only buying it for the name and its just a replica, blah, blah, blah. Well I think were gonna see alot of guys who used to say that look to buy the "name" now.
Manny: We can't go back in time. Sometimes I wish I could.
Heritage? While the new continuation series are replicas of the original series as they share the same design and specifications, same equipment in many parts of the car, same feel, same look, same performance, same aura, same personality and were created by the company that brought us the original series from the creators company (SAI) they are also REAL Cobras. Ironically, while they replicate the original Cobras and are replicas in a sense they are also REAL Cobras being of the continuation series. In short thats why they are called "continuation" Cobras. They are continuing the production stopped years ago.
Are there some differences in the manufacturing process. Sure. Are the people making the chasis and various parts and body different today. Sure. Is the car the same as it was, except for some slight variations in main rail thickness and materials, Yep. Would you expect some things in the process to be different 40 years later. Yeah. I think thats fair.
So when we talk heritage, ie, some right, trait or character passed down or received from a predecesor, the new Cobra is clearly all Cobra and shares not only the same performance traits and ability as it predecesors but is also created by the same guy and Company (SAI) that brought us its forefathers and shares the right to legally wear the Cobra name and emblem. The subcontractors and the hands who build it today have changed as one might expect after 40 years. The creator is the same though.
If CAV builds the Cobra to Shelby's original specs then they will be Cobras. Period. Today CAV is building the chasis instead of AC for the glass cars as Kirkham is for the aluminium cars. Paranthetically from what I've seen from the original tubing and welding quality from AC, personally I'm glad I had the Kirkham boys built my chasis and used the same aluminum used in MiG fighters for my coach work rather than heavy duty Reynolds wrap.
Would I still love an original CSX. You bet. Would I drive it. No way!
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If I was gonna buy a glass car today, I would buy a Superformance. Why? Because I've seen the car first hand, the car has been recommended by people who's opinions I respect, and because I think the car is worth the price of addmission. The new CSX car MAY be worth the $$, but the SPF car IS worth the $$. Would I wait and see if I liked the CSX car over the SPF? No, because I perceive the SPF car as a good value, and that's good enough for me.
To long, to much, I should write a book or something,,,,,,,,,,
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