fuleinjection 460/514 Who

[Bill E]

Who has the best fuel injection set up for a 460 stroked to 514 and a low manifold? Direct port would be nice.

[RICK LAKE]

BillE Which system are you looking for? I throttle body or Stack kit that looks like webers. If it is webers, TWM is they close to orginial webers in looks. VeryCoolParts sell a machined set up also. The ECM is what you eed to look at. See what kind of control you have for the motor. Batch fire or sequential fire for the injectors. Timing and fuel control per cylinder. Cam and crank sensors? one or both. Relay contols for fuel, coolant fans, NOS, wide O2 sensor readings, If you are running a large cam you will need this to get good running motor at WOT. You should buy a Fuel injection book and do some reading so you understand whats needed. You may need a 286 laptop for your system to program. Kinsler also sell a kit that looks like the old injector setup for alcohol. I have a F.A.S.T system with a 1200 cfm accell throttle body. It's a great system. The intake I machined myself for the injectors. There is nothing like FI for driving. It will work just like your other cars in the driveway, getin,turn the key, and Vroom, no worrys. You will need to do some extra wiring and large fuel lines for the electic fuel pump. I mounted my ECU under my dash with the MSD. Good luck Rick Lake

[Tom Wells]

Hi Bill,

See the thread at:

Tom's dyno results

The Holley ECU has been replaced at no extra cost - well, I did have to drive to Bowling Green which is 500 miles extra for me at the time - and all the randon idle problems have gone away.

There is more detail later in the thread on the whole setup.

Regards,

Tom

[Mr.Fixit]

If your plan is to actually increase HP and torque compared to a good Holley carb setup, get a Hilborne individual runner EFI setup. Just like the sprint cars use, except with electronic controls instead of purely mechanical.

[decooney]

Mr FixIt,

I've often wondered what it would be like if I removed my Edelbrock intake,. Holley HP carb and Turkey-Pan and replaced it with some sort of modern fuel injection setup, and maybe something I could dial in with my laptop. Don't get me wrong, my car moves out well now, but it seems like I could dial it in even more, and modern fuel injection with a computer comes to mind for fun sake...

I'd probably keep my more original looking setup for when I sell the car someday, but for now was just wondering if you've seen anyone do this on an FE like my 428CJ with a noticeable improvement? I drive my car in different climates and elevations sometimes too... As long as it could fit under the hood, and I was able to get plenty of air and filtration, i would consider it. Any thoughts or ideas and any results you might be able to share for us FE guys... Thanks, Duane.

[Mr.Fixit]

decooney,

The last EFI cobra with an FE I worked on, I removed a Holley pro-jection and replaced it with a Holley carb. Big improvement in the power. The TBI style FI has the same airflow choking venturi setup as a carb, no improvement (over a carb) except possibly to the fuel economy. IR FI does not restrict airflow, and you can get runners long enough to take advantage of resonant intake tuning. Also, everybody is so keen on how easy it is to tune an EFI car, I disagree. You need a laptop CPU, something my toolbox does not have. Last EFI car I tuned, the borrowed laptop kept locking up during datalogging runs, I guess I didn't like riding in a cobra at WOT. Not that turning screws in a Holley is difficult, nor is changing jets, squirters, pump cams, etc. If you don't know how to tune a carb setup proficiently, than I don't think you will have much sucess getting EFI setup very well. Same process, different methods. I will resist putting EFI on any of my motors until I go with forced induction, then they really can outshine a 4 bbl Holley carb.

[coyled]

Duane, it depends on how well set up your current carb and intake are? A well set up carb, like a barry grant, for a specific application, can work very well under performance circumstances. An out of the box carb with just jet changes is usually less than optimal. Not to knock the holley pro-jection, but injection that sits at the top of the intake, still has to go all the way down the ports to the head. There is lag time just like a carb. Ported fuel injection has injectors right above the head so there is no fuel lag. Issues like intake plenum volume in a single plane which tend to hamper low end response in a carb do not exist with ported fuel injection. I am running a speed pro computer on a high hp 358 naturally aspirated and am very happy. Now, learning to use the lap top for tuneing is not easy at first but is pretty simple once you figure it out. Getting peak performance out of a carb is way harder, more time consuming and more of a trial and error process. The wide band 02's make the datalogging/tuneing process easy. Scott

[decooney]

MrFixIt, thanks...

I'm probably being super critical now, becasue I've pretty much ran out of tuning tricks to do with my very nice Holley HP carb. It's fairly spot on, but the issue I see with even HP carbs are the settings are static, trying to cover a wide range of conditions and temperatures. Whereas, a properly computer controlled fuel injection setup can be more effective, more efficent, and more reliable once set up correctly. I could lean out my carb a bit more, or buy a second carb to swap back and forth for winter and summer so i don't have to keep changing jets. We do the same thing with our motorcycles all the time here...

As for your laptop experience, I can confidently say this is a separate issue that can be easily resolved with a properly built laptop and associated software, and a trained user. Software is software, and hardware is hardware... Laptops too are only as good as the build too. Sounds like you had a less than desireable experience there, but don't give up because the technology is here to stay.

Some of my friends are using computer controlled fuel injection on their offshore boats now running dual 502 chevy motors becuase they can run them in varying elevations and conditions, without a problem. Just going up in elevation from say Sacramento to Lake Tahoe just kills our carb'd engines, but fuel injection cars seem to handle it much better.

So, what I guess I am saying is I'd like to see myself what benefits can be realized from an effective computer controlled fuel injection system could do on an FE (with Variable and Dynamic adjustment) vs. my HP Carb (with static/fixed settings). It may not be available now like it is for other engines, but if it becomes availalbe, it would really fun to test it and see.

Oh well... talk to you later... Duane

[Back in Black]

Under strong lateral G force (like a quick U-turn) my Demon shuts down. The motor wants to die....In addition most non-poly carb gaskets are affected by modern (EPA regulated) fuels. Carbs in my opinion are basically obsolete.


IF you can get your EFI tuned properly, it should be a very long term, trouble free install. For this reason (and emissions regulations of course) all modern car manufacturers use EFI. The problems with getting it initially tuned, as fixit states, is the only problem in my opinion. This is because the aftermarket manufacturers are not on the warpath to make such installs easy. Just poor business practices (neglect of suitable software creation due to lack of R & D) in most cases.

[Mr.Fixit]

Bib,

If your motor is stumbling under later G's, you probubly don't have the right floats. Get the ones with the corner's shaved off, and make sure you have vent tube baffles. Hard cornering will affect EFI too, if the fuel pump pickup is uncovered, no fuel pressureat the rails. With a carb, ther is a slight delay as the fuel bowls have some gas in them.

"Not to knock the holley pro-jection, but injection that sits at the top of the intake, still has to go all the way down the ports to the head. There is lag time just like a carb. Ported fuel injection has injectors right above the head so there is no fuel lag"

There is no such thing as fuel lag with TBI. The air has to get sucked down to the cylinder, the fuel gets there the same time.

[coyled]

Duane, its available now. A speed pro set up would work on your big block. They would drill the intake above the ports for injectors and put a throttle body on it. Mr fix it, no fuel lag? Is there a vaccuum in the intake(no air) until the throttle blades are open? The air is allready in the intake before the throttle is open. The injectors at the port allows the fuel to be there too. Go drive any port fuel injected motor and see how much crispier the response is at low rpm versus a carb. That lag and poor distribution in a carb are the main reasons fuel injection is better from a performance stand point. Idle quality, emissions, fuel economy and elevation changes are added benefits. Scott

[Mr.Fixit]

Coyled,

Apparently you do not understand your motor. There is very little air in an intake manifold when the throttle blades are closed. The air that is in there is at a very low pressure, much less than atmosperic (not a complete vacuum, but very low oxygen density). It is the act of starving the motor for air (not fuel)which controls the RPM of the motor, give it all the air it wants and it will rev until the valves float. The instant you open the throttle blades, air is sucked down the runners and into the cylinder, bringing the fuel with it. You can have the fuel dispensed into the airstream up at the throttle blades, or down in the runner right next to the intake valve, it doesn't matter; your motor needs both at the same time to do anything. The good thing about moving the injector down nearer the valve is you avoid manifold wetting, which causes some fuel mixture problems. Those problems are mostly of concern to the emissions, not the performance of the engine. Fuel lag as you refer to it, is really more of an airflow lag. The greater the volume of your intake manifold between the throttle blades and the intake valve, the farther the air has to flow to respond to the throttle position change. (air velocity is equally important too) Contrary to your statement, I have driven many fuel injected motors. Even the same motor before and after getting (port injection) FI.

[Mr.Fixit]

I recommend this EFI controller over the speed pro anyday, and I have first hand experience with both.

http://www.hilborninjection.com/prod...d=277&CatId=10

[cobrashoch]

Mr.Fixit - In a forced air(blown)situation a wet runner has some advantages too, due to compression heating of the intake charge.
For this reason most of the blown pro 5.0 boys I know don't run a innercooler. They will loose power if they use them. And it seems like all of them use throttle body fuel injection too.
cobrashock

[cobrashoch]

Bill E. Try- www.force-efi.com They have the "shortie" throttle bodys so important to Cobras. That way you can use the popular "Victor" manifolds on Cobras
cobrashock

[750hp]

Ron, the fast PRO 5.0 guys usually mount an air/water cooler where the passenger seat used to be. hile it's not the traditional air/air jobbie sitting proud up front, it's still a cooler.

Hope your car's progressing well! Got any current pics?

[Bill E]

Thanks every one for the info. I am leaning to the Hilborn set up but the Holy is interesting.

[RICK LAKE]

BillE I have F.A.S.T ECU on my car for the wide O2 sensor reading The holley system is OK but is limited to 500 hp I have the 1200 cfm throttle body on my car and are very happy with the preformance with it. The fast system is flexiable I can run 30 lbs low ohm injectors or 96 lbs injector by switching the injectors and siding the other program in. You can upgrade this system any time through the company and have overnight return or swap the next day. I had a poor ground wire and burnt a shunt in the ECU, sent it in, fixed and return in 2 days at no charge except the shipping. You can but a 2000 cfm throttle body on your motor if 1200 in not big enough. I can lug my motor down to 1200 rpm in 5 gear and step on the gas and it pick right up without black smoke, flooded motors, wet spark plugs. The only places a carb is better than FI is in being orginal, cheaper, and over 7500 rpms, it makes more power top end. Overall driviablity still goes to the FI. A couple of magizines have none this testing. Fuel mileage is better too and emmissions. It's up to you. You need to add larger fuel lines (2) min 3/8 and 1/4 return. 255 lbs pump in the tank. I have(2) 1/2 inch supply lines and (1) 3/8 return line. 2 electric 255 fuel pumps in the tank. If racing keep 1/2 fuel in the tank has to have no fuel starving problems. I run only 1 pump unless the supercharger is running under boost. This prevents leanouts. If you want to talk about FI more call me 732-254-3536 in the evening up till 12:00 or buy the basic fuel injection books and read up. Don't stop asking questions. Rick Lake

[coyled]

Mr. fix it, I guess you didn't have a very good experience with a lap top and a speed pro set up. Next time you are asked to tune a speed pro set up, call me and I will help you. Almost all efi aftermarket systems put the injectors at the port. Does hilborn put the injectors at the top of the stack? no, its near the port too. I have been in 3 cars that went from carb to efi with the same intake, and throttle response was way better. Kinsler fuel injection(they might understand this stuff) recomends the speed pro and sells more than any other unit. I am not saying it is the best or the cheapest, just well used and well liked. Scott

[Back in Black]

Fuel rails and individual ports just above each valve.. with the 1000 cfm air door to be placed where the carb is now (The rails have been there all along, just not hooked up of course) So there should not be any lag.

My carb is a Demon 850... why would it not already have suitable floats!? It's supposed to be a race carb

I did have it apart once, took off the rear float "bowl" because it had some crud in there, and replaced the gasket.. I don't remember exactly what the float looked like tho