Cobra 427 Comp vs. Grand Sport vs. 275LM

[REAL 1]

As I recall these three cars were all conceived to compete against the other but none made it to FIA homologation for the GT class for 1965.

I always wondered "what if". Any thoughts on who would have come out on top considering not only the cars but the tracks and drivers of the time and why.

[Bill Kesner]

In my opinion....the 427 Cobra would have come out on top......provided that the motor stayed together, and there were no other problems with the car.

Going off memory, I thought the Grand Sports did quite well over the 289 Cobra's, till the FE was placed into the Cobra. And the Coupe ate the Ferrari for lunch, so it's just a logigal deduction. Now if you watch some of the Historic races....seems as if it's always a 289 Cobra, 427 Cobra, or the Coupe taking 1st place in their group. Go figure......they are great cars! I'll take 1-each.

- Bill -

[Aussie Mike]

Wasn't the GS running the small block motor as well? I don't think the Vette got the Mark 4 BB till 66 or 67. Imagine if they had the L88 or ZL1 motors under the hood.

Cheers

[Bill Kesner]

I agree Mike.......

The Grand Sport with the L88 motor would have been very, very quick. Can you imagine...a ZL1 Grand Sport would have been something like a Big Block Cheetah.

- Bill -

[speed220mph]

Love these Chebby vs Ford comparisons. I believe the 427 Cobra was developed because of the GS Vette. When the 427 SC hit the track it was all over for the GS and Cheetah. Not too many GS Vettes or Cheetahs in any form are on the road, but there's no end to Cobras of all kinds regardless of lawsuits from the old man CS, God love him.

Something I've noticed: When FoMoCo sets its mind to win, look out Chevrolet, Ferrari, Toyota, Honda . . . . Example: When Enzo reneged on the deal with Henry II to sell Ferrari to Ford, the Duece said to Enzo, "If we can't buy you, then we'll beat you!" Enter the GT40 and the LeMans wins which followed. Then there's the Gen"Ford", aka Chevrolet Gen IV CART engine, that could finally beat Toyota.

By the way, I sure like Z06 Vettes.

[Kputz]

I think you might be confusing the Cobra with something that Ford did. The Cobra was simply a way for Shelby to go racing and needed a motor to marry to an already existing car, hence Ford's limited participation, and the car's legendary horrible manners. The GS on the other hand would have been a factory effort and probably would have, hands down, been the better car, taking advantage of more extensive R & D. The GT40 on the other hand was more a factory effort and it showed.

[Cal Metal]

Depends what type of racing you are talking about. The GS had real problems with front end lift, despite its potent acceleration. That is the reason that Rob Walton sold his car this past year. Very unstable north of 150 mph. BTW, the GS was configured with a 377 cid SB Chev with 58 DCOE Webers on a Crossram. Roger Penske once said that it was like a dragster off the starting line and would lift the front end off the ground.

The 250 LM was set up for distance racing and would be my pick. Given the brick dynamics of the Cobra and GS, the LM would be the hands down favorite on the long tracks like Le Mans. It is really in the GT-40 category with good aeros, rear engine, and purposely built for FIA racing.

The reason, I think, that the perception is skewed toward the Cobra is that so many do show up at vintage events and, because of their huge production numbers, vis a vis the other two, their placement is quite good. Only five GS Corvettes were made and the LM is as scarce as hen's teeth in the states.

The Daytona Coupe was the perfect car and did it all--short track/long track.

[speed220mph]

Don't forget the early TransAm battles between the Donohue/Penske Camaros vs. the Jones/Folmer/KarKraft prepped Mustangs. No doubt about how much stronger the Mustangs were over the Camaros. And all this was started by Jerry Titus' domination of B/Prod in his '65 Shelby GT350 based on the high performance Mustang. Not too confusing that the GT350 was a Ford product before a few minor mods made it the GT350. Great marketing by the old man.

As for the big FE engine in the Cobra, it was a FORD no matter how it's excused as a way for Ole Shel to go racing. Fact was he won with it. When aero became an major factor, then it was on to the Daytona, which was basically a reskinned small-block Cobra. History of this car speaks for itself.

[Kputz]

It's history is accepted as written, nobody could argue the fact. I would however take issue with exactly how much of it was "Ford" and how much it was truly "built". That history is pretty well documented too, regardless of the reams of urban legend abounding. You don't have to guild the lily to make a good story good.

[Russ Dickey]

I can't remember if all my facts are right here, but I'm sure you guys will correct me if not.

Didn't the GS and the Fliptop Cobra meet at Nassau? And wasn't the Fliptop powered by a 390 at the time? The GS had the 377ci stroker, and if I recall correctly, at the end of the 1st lap, Ken Miles and his Fliptop were like 1/8th of a mile ahead. The Fliptop ended up DNF'ing with mechanical problems, but before it did, it was clear which car was faster (in fact, didn't Miles lap almost the entire field?).

You guys mention the "What if there was a big-block GS" question. I know they're not Grand Sports, but there are lots of big-block 60's Corvettes that participate in vintage races around the country, and they get spanked on a regular basis by the Cobras. Would a GS version really have been that much faster? Maybe so because of the bigger brakes, lighter weight, better suspension, etc., but I have a feeling the snake would still win.

I feel that it's just not fair to compare the GS with the S/C Cobras, because the GS's were specialty-built race cars that were hardly streetable. The S/C's, while poorly street-mannered, could be street driven on a regular basis. Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for them, and they are my favorite bow-tie product, but I just don't like comparing a full-on race-car to a street car that could also be raced. Now if Chevy produced a GS S/C, that would be different....

[cobra427hp]

Just imagine what kind of results would be fact had Shelby installed overhead cam 427 motors in 1965-66 Cobras to run against Corvette GS with L88. I imagine drivers would have to aquire pilots licenses!

[Bill Kesner]

Russ,

I agree with you on some points, though if GM had someone like Shelby on their side, you propably would have seen Grand Sports sold as wild street cars. Hard to believe the Cobra Comp cars were for sale at a dealership, but they were in all their full race set-up.

As for the Grand Sports, it's too bad GM pulled the plug on these cars. I think the FE Cobra's, and the Daytona Coupe turned their world upside down!

Cal......I didn't hear that Rob sold his GS. I would have kept it, as it's value will only continue to climb, but I'm sure he is just making room for another car! Any idea what the selling price was? He sure has an impressive collection of cars!

- Bill -

[TimG427]

The #1 Penske blue GS roadster ran/runs an L88 motor in the vintage events and I have seen Doug Hooper handle this car at Road America. All sorted out, it is a quick car. I had a D & D replica of the #2 GS and it was an amazing car. I think that Chevy would have pushed Ford and Ford would have pushed back at Chevy. Both manufacturers would have cars that would have benefited. Who knows what the result would have been. I think that everyone lost out when Chevy nixed their plans to build 125 of the Grand Sports. Now Chevy is interfering with plans to build a GS replica.

[Jamo]

What Cal said.

Different cars when you mix the LM with the S/C and GS. LM v. Daytona or GT40 is the better matchup.

Rules changed so much from year to year back then, it is difficult to make comparisons and what-ifs?

BTW, the LM was one of the prettiest damn things ever to be on a track.

[Aussie Mike]

The GS was a "Skunk works" operation done by the dealers without the approval or input from GM. I read they were starting to do really well until GM management found out and got all upset about this "unofficial" racing division. They threatened to fire every one involved so the project was shut down.

Given it's dealer team origins it was probably more closely based on the production car than you guys make out

Imagine if GM proper had got on board with the GS project and started developing the GS. I read at it's 1963 Nassau debut it was 11 seconds a lap faster than the 289 Cobras.

The production Corvette at that time had better suspension than the Cobra. It was equiped with an unequal length douple wishbone setup and had much lower roll centers. This makes for a much flatter handling car and it didn't lean like the Cobra. It was let down by it's drum brakes and heavier weight meaning the Cobra got into and out of the corners faster.

I guess this is a "what if?" thread so what If Duntov was working on the GS directly? Add some decent brakes, a thiner lightweight fiberglass body and the L88 motor in a "S/C" version and we might all be posting on "Club Corvette" right now.

I agree Jamo that ferrari is the nicest looking of the bunch.

Cheers

[Cal Metal]

Aussie:

The GS was a "Factory Skunk Works" project thru and thru. Created at the beheast by Duntov himself. They were lent to teams (Davis (Gulf Oil), John Mecum) as modified looking Stingrays.

The BB issue is all well and good and there are a lot of "what ifs" but the BIG BIG problem with the GS was their lack of high speed stability. When a car loses its status as a land based vehicle, it doesn't matter how much power you have.

The wind tunnel test on the "slippery" '63 designed Stingray proved to have more drag than the '62 quad light production Corvette.

Personally, I don't think the GS was ever a contender, especially if you match it up against the Daytonas. There is just no comparison. It would have gotten killed at Le Mans--not for lack of power--but staying on the track.

The Walton car sold (this is the buzz I get) for over $4,000,000 to a collector of exotic race prepped Corvettes. This collector also owns CSX 3002 and the Harr Ford 427 DragonSnake.

[REAL 1]

Cal: Good points. Thanks.

[TimG427]

The Grand Sports did have disc brakes right out of the gate. When you said drum brakes, I wasn't sure if you meant the production Corvette or GS. The Production Corvette had drum for 63 and 64. The hard cover book on the GS shows good pictures of the completed chassis with no body. The disc brakes on the GS were non vented type, still lacking over the production 65 units.

[Bill Kesner]

Cal.....

Thanks for sharing the sale info on Rob's Grand Sport. Not a bad price for a GS, considering the Daytona Coupes are fetching around $4M with an FIA championship behind them.

- Bill -

[Aussie Mike]

Thanks for setting me straight Cal. I think you're probably right on the money that the aerodynamics would be the deciding factor. LeMans racing is probably responsible for some of the sliperiest closed wheel cars racing.

If GM were backing the GS team I wonder why they pulled the pin?

The drum brakes was in reference to the production Corvettes racing the 289 Cobras. I read a Road & Track article from June 1963 that had some insight into the Corvette Cobra battle. There is a book of the Road and Track articles from 1962-1983 covering Shelbys and Ford GT40s. It's got some very interesting reading in it and a lot of old pictures. The ISBN number is 0 946489 36 X if anyone wants to find it on Amazon.

Cheers