Differences: original 289 Cobra & original 427 S/C Cobra

[Excaliber]

There was an article about testing MODERN SAI built 289 FIA against a modern SAI built 427 alloy block. Both virtually stock as delivered.

The 427 did better in the slalom than the 289 car. HOW EVER, I do remember wondering how the test was "really" run, were the cars indeed equal, etc. In my mind the Jury is STILL out as to which MODERN version better.

Ernie

[RICK LAKE]

DKing Doug there are at least 10 threads about this topic. You cann't compare apples to oranges. If you are 5'5" and weight 150 lbs, A small block will be easier to drive. There is no power steering. Motor weights can be made to within 100 lbs of an aluminium 427 and cast iron 289. Small block orginial cars have 3 inch tubing (round) BB cars have 4 inch tubing( round ) Unless you are trying to build an orginial car down to the last rivet, you should take a hard look at some of the other Replica cars on the market. See how the bodys are mated to the frames. The happy middle of the road the last couple of years is a stroked 351 windsor out to 394 cu. You can make 500 hp and 550 tork and keep the cost incontrol. good windsor is 12- 15 grand. An alum 427 is 17500.00$ for a small stroker, 452 cubes. In a small racing track the small block wins hands down, on long racing straights the BB comes out on top, however it takes more braking to slow that big monster down. Go to a couple of car shows and talk to the owner both BB and SB, and the stroker guys too. The first question you need to ask is what are you going to do with the car? Lay out a game plan and stay with it. Rick Lake

[DKing]

This wasn't intended as a small block - big block question. I am interested in the handling characteristics of the two original designs.

I knew when I started this thread that I'd get a few of the "mine's better than yours" kind of responses, but what I was hoping for was opinions from someone who has driven both, and decided one way or another.

Any takers?

[Excaliber]

Buggy spring vs coil spring design? I think the only motor used in the buggy spring was a 289, so that rules out the Big Blocks entirely. How could they be compared then?

In the "road test" I referenced above that was a 289 buggy spring car vs a 427 coil spring car. The only other way to compare would be a "hy-bred", a new 289 FIA with 427 coil spring suspension running a small block.

In the old pics of the 289 Cobras you can see a LOT of body roll, and they sat up kind of high. The suspension adjustments with the buggy springs was extremely limited. Coil was far superior in that regard.

Ernie

[DKing]

It seems my line of questioning keeps getting turned into a "which one is better" question.

Can't compare apples and oranges? Why not? Oranges have a skin you wouldn't ordinarily eat. Apples you can eat the skin (good idea to clean it first, though). Oranges break into bite-sized chuncks, wherein an apple you just bite into it. They both make great juices, but most Americans opt for orange juice over apple juice during breakfast. After consuming both, I'd have to say I prefer oranges, but both really are delicious.

Same thing with Cobras, but in the absence of experience driving both (I've driven a Superformance with a stroked 351W, and it was quite delicious) I thought I would see if anyone on clubcobra had driven both, and for them, came out with a preference, one way or another. The related question would be why the preference.

Other than that, I wanted to understand the subtle differences between the cars.

Excaliber: I'll take a look at the road test you mentioned. This should be helpful.

-Doug

[Lew Ledyard]

The question could probably be answered objectively best by David Kirkham and Bob Putnam since they both make each model.

[turnpike boy]

When Bob Bondurant first drove a small-block fitted, coil-spring car (i.e., 427 style) he was quoted as saying "this is the car Shelby should have built all along".

Any help?

[casaleenie]

Go to the ERA website and they'll walk you through the differences. Unfortunately you won't be able to test drive the pictures... No body panel is shared between the two cars...

[Edley Rondinone]

Casaleenie: I think the trunk lids were the same!

[casaleenie]

Edley,

You may be correct, however according to ERA they say none of the parts were interchangeable. Check out the ERA site on the comparisons...
nice to hear from you again,,

[Edley Rondinone]

Thank you, kind sir! I will try to contact my source; he has one of each. He will know for sure.

[Specialk]

The trunk lids interchange. The reason an FIA may not "interchange" is the dimples.

[Robert Evans]

Buggy Springs? Not that the coil sprung chassis's aren't better, but the Daytona Coupe's used the leaf-spring chassis and they won the World Championship in '65, so they are driveable to some people.

BTW, not all 289's had dimples; only the FIA-bound cars after Sebring in '64.

[Jim Maxwell]

I have driven several original 427's and 289's. including one of the original FIA cars (2260). There is no comparison in the handling characteristics--the 289's win hands down! Everyone that has driven my cars says the same thing, and every original 427 owner wants my 289 after drivng it. The 289's feel more stable, more connected to the road, and you can sense how close you are to the limit much easier in the 289. I always have this sense that I'm about to get bitten in the 427--I just don't know when its actually going to happen!
The transverse leaf springs of the 289's are primitive. No doubt about it. A coil spring 289 should be magnificent--I just haven't driven one. Maybe a lovely Kirkham of that description would make a nice addition to the stable here.

[Lew Ledyard]

Jim:

Is it because the 427s have too much power, too much engine weight or both? Or is it because the chasis/suspension design of a 427 is more "nervous"? If it's too much weight would an aluminum block/heads solve the problem. If it's too much power, couldn't you just shove a couple of old socks down two of the four barrels? If it is a problem attributable to the chasis set-up of a 427, then I canot see how a hybrid running a small block would help. Just trying to get some thoughts from someone who has driven both.

Thanks

[Jim Maxwell]

I wish I knew!
It isn't a power issue. My stroker 347 with Webers in the "289" has far more HP than my "427" (which is an original 428PI engined car, that way from the factory in 1966).
It may well be a weight distribution problem.
The car does feel more "nervous"-this is a trait shared with 2 other big block cars I have driven. However, the big block replicas I have driven, including a 427 side oiler ERA car, don't have this feel at all, so whatever it was seems unique to the originals. Maybe it is worn parts, but the front end on my car has been re-done by Dave Dralle, in Calif., who sets up lots of race cars. The steering feels tight, but the rear end just doesn't seem attached as well as it should. One person has suggested the steering box may be worn. I'll have that checked. I am open to other ideas.
The good news is that the replicas I have driven don't have the problem, and I would bet the CSX 4000's don't either or you would hear about it.

[Lew Ledyard]

Thanks Jim. I am glad that I won't have to waste a pair of socks.

[Jim Maxwell]

plus the gas is rough on your feet when you put them back on later!

[DKing]

The ERA web site is very helpful. There are a number of very subtle differences noted. Thanks.

I know one of the key ideas behind going Kirkham or Shelby (same car, different serial numbers, right?) is for authenticities' sake. But has anyone put a small block into a Kirkham or Shelby 427 S/C? Definitely not faithful to the original design, but hey, who am I to argue with Bob Bondurant?

Aside from the ridicule from the purists, could this be the path to Cobra Nirvana?

So, here's the fess up: I think I'd prefer a small block, but I like the 427 S/C design better, and personally would prefer a Kirkham or Shelby. Anybody out there stuff a small block into a Kirkham 427 S/C?

Don't get me wrong: there are some mighty fine Cobras out there (Hhmmm, and some pretty scary ones, too) that are not faithful to the original design. I'm trying to reconcile my taste in engines with my taste in cars.

-dbk

[Lew Ledyard]

Sounds like you want a Kirkham hybrid.