Being from South Africa doesn't make someone Superformance

[bvega]

I thank you for the pleasant interchange of the ideas.

1) You are certainly right that square tubing CAN be stronger than round tubing but you are also right that there are a lot of variables. For instance diameter/dimensions, thickness, intersections, and welds. I will tell you that the original 60's frame was computer generated by FORD MOTOR COMPANY. As you know back then all of their cars were like tanks. Another thing to consider is that the frames are now made with thicker steel tubing than before. Meaning the frames are stronger then ever. Also they put more reinforcements around the passenger cockpit area then previously. This new CSX car is better than any previous 60's car. I drove both and I can tell you that both are comparable in handling although the suspension seemed much more stable at high loads of torque with the CSX than the SPF. Also my background as an ASE certified technician of 40 years and dealership mechanic for both foreign and domestic makes I have driven and owned and serviced all types of cars from Shelby gt 350 - Ferrari- Jaguar E types - Porsche - Mercedes and the list goes on. There is no pretense attached to this.

2) Shelby has been using fiberglass all through their history in street and racing. For instance GT40 had a fiberglass version for LeMans. The problem for the aluminum is mainly durability and user friendly qualities. Gary Patterson at SAI was jumping all over this fiberglass body but would not even barely lean against an Aluminum cobra that we also test drove. Look they are going to drive the same as an aluminum one only they are more durable for a street version that I wanted.

I am not a museum curator but I do want to own a genuine CSX car. And if Shebly can deliver that car at a reasonable price then my dreams have been answered and those dreams were and are still held by most of the replica owners and lovers. Afterall that is why SPF became the company it is and the threat to SAI and ulitmately created the competition required to make a CSX affordable.


With the logic of you slippery slop then we might as well start putting honda engines in these cars. The current CSX cars are part of an evolution and continuation of the original model. This is not a CAV cobra. CAV is just a subcontractor. The parts are Shelby, the design is Shelby therefore it is a Shelby. That is all there is to it. Even the original was a compilation of subcontracted work. Some was Shelby, Some was Ford, Some was AC, Some was done by various suppliers all over the world and bodies coming from england, italy, etc.


You would really spend another $30,000 for an aluminum dent magnet? Unless you are Mr. Petersen and you have an automotice museum then be practical when it comes to money. That is why SAI moved to offshore operations. It's all about money. If the product is the same you go with the original product whether it is fiberglass or aluminum.

I will tell you my history the past few years on my quest for an AC Cobra. I first wanted the CSX cars because they were by Shebly and they were continuation and genuine, more genuiune than anything replicating it. But like most of us blue collar folk they were way too overpriced compared to the fit and finish of a SPF. The SPF was a well executed similar copy. The price of the SPF made it an attractive, affordable, alternative to the real thing. Now the real thing is attainable and affordable and still the real thing. If I go to the supermarket and see that coca cola is only .10 more than the store brand I will by the coca cola because why not buy the real thing if you can. And you still will find the odd fellow that likes the taste of the store brand cola better and even those that just have to save that .10. My dream was to own a Shelby Cobra and now that I can afford it I will. I do thank all of the replica companies for keeping the dream alive for all of us during Shelby's absence and during the resurgence of this phenomenal love affair for this classic design.

In conclusion I think that is obvious that Mr. Shelby is having a renaissance of his passion for motorsports. You can see that he is reliving the triumphant past where Ford power was dominating the world racing circuit more than ever before. He was making history and now he is letting all of us relive it with him. The winds blowing are whispering of Shelby and Ford getting back together to make a Shelby Mustang again starting in 2005. This means that we are experiencing the renaissance of muscle cars and much of what makes life worth living.

[Lowell W]

Turk,

I'm curious: You had a perfectly beautiful ERA until what, last year, and then sold it. Now you have a CSX but you said on page 10 that you will sell it and get another ERA.

If you don't mind my asking...They're both gorgeous cars but did you have to own both to realize you liked the ERA better? Does this have anything to do with the recent CS decision to manufacture cars in SA? Did you forget to take your medicine for awhile? Is it the people involved in the manufacture of the cars?

You've really piqued my curiosity.

Thanks,

Lowell

[mrmustang]

Lowell,

I can answer that as I have gone from FFR to FFR to Contemporary to (TBD).....IT is always a good thing to try different items to see which you will like first. in my case however, I get the itch for something new every so often (the local Mustang Club gave my cars the handle of "Bill's Mustang of the month" because I changerd Mustang convertible so quickly)..........To each his own I always say...........


Bill S.

[Dan Semko]

Lowell,
Turk doesn't like ANY of them, he's driving a 930 Eurospec'd Porsche. He's like mrmustang and has to taste, I mean try everything. He almost converted Evan who REALly wanted the 930 but couldn't get permission!

[PatBuckley]

Well it is good to finally get a real expert on this forum!

Thank you bvega - I can relax now, knowing that all answers are available from you.

Pat Buckley

mr mustang - I know Turk a heck of a lot better than you and can say without fear of contradiction that you did not answer Lowell's question -

[mrmustang]

Hey Pat,




Bill S.

[speedraser]

bvega,

It is nice to have a pleasant exchange...

Neither one of us knows which is the strongest, stiffest, or "best" (whatever that means) of the new frames from Shelby, ERA, or SPF. This will remain a mystery until someone tests them for torsional rigidity, bending stiffness, etc.

The original Shelby Cobras had aluminum bodies, regardless of other vehicles Shelby was involved with. This is a personal thing, but aluminum is somehow more appealing to me. Just look at those bare aluminum cars -- they're gorgeous! Leaving aside for the moment the various aluminum vs. 'glass arguments from a practicality standpoint, aluminum is just appealing to me and it's the way the originals were built. So, I may well spend the extra money for it when the time comes. I may not.

I want a CSX car too, but for me, the CSX # only really matters if it's a 2000 or a 3000 series. That's just me, though I do understand those who want it in the new cars.

The slippery slope thing: there is a world of difference between a) an ERA that has virtually perfectly "authentic" aesthetics (even the front suspension "X" structure is replicated because it's visible under the hood), an FE engine, etc., but a different chassis from an original, and b) a Honda-powered anything!

I drink Coca-Cola because I like it better. If everything else were equal, I'd buy the original even it cost a little more, but I like Coke's taste the best. Similarly, in my ERA vs. CAV CSX debate, I'll buy the car I like better considering all the factors. The CSX # is one factor, but many others are more important to me.

BTW, just like the '60s AC (COB) "Cobra" cars are considered just
as genuine as the '60s CSX cars, I think the Kirkham cars are just as legitimate today as the new CSX cars. Kirkham is to Shelby as AC was to Shelby. COB:CSX = KMP:CSX.

Lots of luck with your car -- I'm sure you'll love it.

[Tom T.]

He didn't SAY it was the "slippery slope," he said it was the "slippery slop!" WAY different. Changes everything.

TT

[bvega]

Funny, maybe someone will invent some spell check feature for online forums.

[casaleenie]

Originally posted by kountzecobra


I'm just glad I couldn't care less about all this crap!

I think it's great.... I bought my Unique with my toy money...
If the price drops in half due to market fluctuations I'm still OK.
No great investment, it wasn't meant to be for investment. I predict that if CS in SA takes off like it should, the SPF owners will make the jumpers of 1929 look like a day in the park...

I love the fact that my Cobra replica is a Unique... I go to be at night not worrying about what's going on in South Africa...

However, having said that, I'm eagerly awaiting delivery of my new Shelby CSX refrigerator due to arrive from Las Vegas shortly.It will be CSX 002 because the old man is keeping #001 for himself...
Sure my old refrigerator keeps the food and beverages nice and cold but the Shelby keeps it cold better... Can't wait for Carrolls new line of CSX mixers and stoves...

God, I'm starting to love that guy....

[Durt]

Not to mention the eagerly awaited legal battle with Hormel. Apparently, Shelby has accused them of stealing the name 'chili' from him and has vowed to "put them bean stealin' city boys in the poorhouse."
Shelby has initiated plans to manufacture his own 'Authentic Shelby Chili' in an abandoned Hungarian goulash factory with each can sporting it's own CSX stamp of authenticity.
Shelby was impressed with the precision and attention to detail the Hungarian can makers put into their product. "Heck, all I needed to do was show them boys how to dump some beans and chili powder in that goulash, and we was in business," he said. "Lord willin' we'll have every chili cookin' thief in the country, including the homemade variety, buyin' my chili or having an old fashioned cookoff in court."

[Turk]

Lowell W,
I wanted an ERA for as long as I can remember,. At least 15-17 years.
There was no Kirkham, No Shelby CSX4000 or anything like that when I first fell in love with the car. There was Hytech, Everett Morrison Contemporary and others.

In my mind ERA was it. I am not speaking with any knowledge other than my own personal bias. I had decided on an ERA. Period.

Before I could afford one, others came to the market place. Kirkhams, FFRs, SPFs, and even the Shelby CSX4000s.
I did not change my mind, and still went with the ERA.

Yes you are absolutely right, the car was spectacular. I will always have a special place for that car. It was built with accuracy and with great detail and also felt like it was as strong as a tank.
After 11,000 miles I decided to put a Tunnel Port Engine in it and drive it for many many years. I sold the engine to our friend U-2 Driver and proceed to build another engine.

About that time, Bob Marsh from Shelby made me an offer that was hard to pass up. Other friends around me were all acquiring alloy cars, and not wanting to be left behind I too decided to go with one. The offer was good, the engine was sold, the car was sitting in the garage not drivable..

Everything came together and I became a Shelby CSX owner. I didn't' seek it, and didn't particularly want it. It was a fair deal and I took them up on it.

It was easier to part with the ERA since it was just sitting in the garage waiting for a new engine. The proceeds from the sale of the engine and the car made the transaction possible.

I found the Shelby car every bit as good, and very authentic, and had the pedigree to boot. I can't say anything bad about it. It drives like a dream, the weight difference made the car very nimble. Suspension is excellent, and it IS aluminum. Contrary to to the opinions of few who didn't think folks in Las vegas were being helpful, I found the level of customer care, helpfulness, timeleness excellent.
Class operation.

I am NOT comfortable with aluminum. I don't particularly enjoy the extra attention one must pay to keep it free of dents etc.
It is true that the new alloy cars from Kirkham are using thicker aluminum, and they are more dent resistant, blah blah blah.

As much as I enjoy the extra attention our cars get with bare aluminum look, I am still not a big fan of aluminum.
It is nice, it is like the originals, but....

SO with that background I am more comfortable with fiberglass,. Where I work we have competent people who can work with glass, fix and finish it. Painting is not a problem.

I don't know anyone around me who can help me out if someone was to lean on my car, or I was to drop something on it. (ALLAN!!, Are YOU Listening?).

That is why the flip flop. I didn't get rid of the ERA because I didn't like it, and I won't get another one because CSX disappointed me. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I am just a big fan of ERA and their cars. CSX makes me nervous, there is too much baggage attached to it. Friends think of it as a one oneupmanship. Others think you are loaded that is why you bought it. Some get their jollies bashing the car, the man or anything else associated with Shelby.

Questions as to why someone would pay $20,000 to $30,000 for a CSX plaque!!
These people are clueless. They have no idea how much or how little a premium one must pay to buy a Shelby. They just assume.

Since the ERA gave me no such heartburn, no worries, I thought I would order another and keep it till I die.

Those more careful with their cars, and those who enjoy the prestige of aluminum should by all means give Shelby a shot.It will always be a Shelby, whether it will appreciate or depreciate is anyone's guess. No one knows.

Great cars regardless which one you go with.

Some drive their cars carefully and very few miles. Do you realize how many Cobras are out there that are 4-5 years old with 2 or 3 thousand miles on them?
I drove my ERA 11,000 miles in 10 months. For my driving style it is a match made in heaven. I am not into car shows, I am not into track, or Auto Cross. I just enjoy driving them long distances.

If you read some of my earlier posts going back a year ago, when there was no mention of CAV cars you would see the consistency in my posts. I was saying the same then as I am now. NO it is NOT the introduction of CAV Shelby cars.
I couldn't care less about the speculation of values etc. Not my motivation whatsoever.
I buy them to enjoy them NOW. Not later!!

TURK

[mrmustang]

Turk,

You just summed up my entire view of owning collector cars and convertibles in general. Mind if I use this as my new sig line???

Cobraless in NJ,


Bill S.

Originally posted by Turk



I couldn't care less about the speculation of values etc. Not my motivation whatsoever.
I buy them to enjoy them NOW. Not later!!

TURK

[Lowell W]

Turk,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. You obviously have the benefit of exposure to many Cobra owners and cars, also the opportunity to enjoy your cars year 'round.

You're the first aluminum car owner I've seen on this forum willing to compare the relative merits/drawbacks of fiberglass vs. aluminum objectively. I expect you'll take some heat for this; I appreciate your candor. I expect you'll also take some heat regarding your comparison of SAI with anybody else. Oh well...

I'm also what you probably would call a "high mileage" Cobra owner: 9500+ miles in almost 6 months. I do realize how many low mileage cars there are out there and particularly for sale. Sad, isn't it? I shopped hard for a comfortable, well-built car, set it up the way I wanted (fast but not so radical I'd have to fool with it constantly). then set about trying to make up for all the time I'd lost since 1966. I'm not too concerned about depreciation, as I'm deriving many more dollars worth of fun from my car than it possibly could be depreciating.

I'm also a big fan of ERA. I spent hours touring their facility and visiting with Peter, and couldn't imagine nicer people from whom to buy a car. Their cars are fabulous. In the end, I felt I'd be happier with a car which better accommodated my height. I envy you guys who can fit into any Cobra you want!

Anyway, thanks again for your time and your insight. Enjoyed chatting with you.

Lowell

[BLACKJACK]

TURK - --

GREAT POST.

HAVE PETER & BOB BEEN WARNED OF YOUR DECISION???

DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT THEY CAN HANDLE ANOTHER "TURK-MOBILE" ???

I GUESS IF THEY ARE "EVER" TO RETIRE THIS WOULD BE ABOUT THE RIGHT TIME.

I CAN'T WAIT TO READ ALL THE "PROGRESS REPORTS" AGAIN

Y'ALL HAVE A REALLY GREAT DAY,

BLACKJACK

[misfit41]

Turk you do make a lot of sense,
This CSX vs everything debate has gotten so embarrasing I decided to take the high road and be a spectator until the dust settles,in my mind your pics settled it a bit.
I know the era is a wonderful car,honestly when I got serious about a car,I couldnt afford a good one,I probably couldnt afford the used SV I have now,But I paid for it in crisp hundreds I had pigeon holed ,and plan to do the same with the new csx,maybe selling off another toy ,or a few guns to help the deal.
I was tickled pink with the Shell and it's possibilities,I would get pout of bed,go to the gararge late at night just to fire up the 427 for a second,then this SA CSX came up,I start thinking,maybe I can pull this off.
All things considered ,if this car is what it is supposed to be,nothing has changed,just the same car built farther south,it's a no brainer in comparision to actual passenger cars,these things are cheap to build,so no reason it has to be junk to sell for 40k coming from south africa.
Carroll Shelby never does anything for very long ,so I doubt there will ever be mass numbers of this car made,I do think the spf and other high end market may adjust a bit,but after the clouds clear,SAI will bump the price up on the CAV cars,and all will be normal,when your shopping for a car ,10k is still 10k,so a good car like spf and era will be there,I expect some of the lessor companies could take hard hits though.
I intend to keep the car till I die,but I do consider the resale in any thing I do,I cant afford not to,and the CSX number means something to me,it has to mean something to anyone, no matter what everyone says,it is a real shelby,new production,continuation,whatever,but if Carrol Shelby says it is real,it is real,in 20 years that has to mean something,varying greatly on the numbers produced I am sure.
As great as they are,no one will ever start building copies of ERA,SPF,or any other ,CSX Cobra will have to mean something in resale.
I am sure some of the higher tech cars are as good or better than a csx,when it comes to racing and handling,but like you I dont care to play racer,if I did I would get a short track late model ,or open wheel and really race where it counts,I just want a good looking,good running,as close to authentic as I can afford car for my enjoyment,and saying YES when some guy ask "is it real" is worth the 10k to me,just like the guy said about guns,if you want to shoot,buy a springfield armory ,if you want pride of ownership,collectibility and resale,buy a colt,it will always be a colt.
I get tired of the constant bashing of Shelby,it is childish,I am not defending him,and never met him,but I respect the impact he made on our world,I dont blame him for the law suits,he should have done it 25 years ago,try building a car and putting chevy on it and see what happens,he is responsible for every replica,shirt,emblem,club and forum,at the least I think he deserves respect,and maybe a buck or two from every cobra item sold,thats how it should work,and out of the spirit of fairplay,I think those who bashed him here,should go out and pry the fake cobra emblems,and id tags of their cars,,Tk

[Dan Semko]

"It is true that the new alloy cars from Kirkham are using thicker aluminum, and they are more dent resistant, blah blah blah."

Great, NOW you tell me!

[Turk]

Bill,
You want to use the ENTIRE post as a "sig line"?
Sure, why not? I make as much sense as you do most of the time. It would be seamless for the reader.

Lowell,
Enjoy your SPF.I DO (bashing them!).

BLACKJACK,
I doubt it that they would build me another car. Why do you think I still have the other car.
I've heard Bob Putnam and Peter say, "Once was ENOUGH"!

Misfit41,
I don't know the old man. I am a fan of the car, the replicas of the car, the continuation of the car, the copies of it and (if it is a decent car) now the import version of the car.
It is hard to believe only one manufacturer could build good cars overseas. If the New CSX is a POS I will stand corrected. I doubt it it will be any better or worse than anything else. It is just a car.
my years in the business, gives me a little more -Who Cares- attitude. It is all iron to me. Sometimes, it is all plastic.

Dan Semko,
Don't forget I am still a car salesman. Why would I kink my own deal. It is a different story when I am buying than it is when I am selling.
Hey..Can I interest you in a real nice -TWO OWNER- Porsche. Nice car. The second owner doesn't drive it much. The original owner COULDN'T.

TURK

[misfit41]

Turk,
In my own feeble way I was agreeing with your post,I assume you work in chevy sales? I was a chevy gm for several years before I went on my own,and I concur,it gets to be just iron,and people just people,iI wouldnt dare buy a new car or truck these days,unless it is one of my bikes,or a hot rod,everything else is just point a to point b,so I save what I would spend trading to buy toys,and drive clunkers daily,,lol,I do belive those of us who can still remain passionate however are the ones who reap benefits,I used to pound that into my sales people,what is just a car to us,but it's THE car to those people buying.
Dont get me wrong,I am not a Carroll Shelby cheerleader,but I do think he deserves the ultimate respect for his acomplishments,he did for the sports car world what Elvis did for music,but then again there some who cant see the impact the king had either,,whats that they say "50 million Elvis fans cant be ALL wrong "
do you have any interior shots from sa ? just curious,,Tk

[Dan Semko]

Truk,
OK, $30k for that 2 owner Porsche, right now!