AC enters the fray - Page 3

Dan Semko · #41 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 05:44 AM

Sorry Ron,
You are correct and while I was editing the post, you posted.
I hope that it clarifies the Price position. The confrontational response was addressed to Evan and Brent for not clarifying their points. I know, two wrongs don't make it REAL or right!

rdorman · #42 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 06:42 AM

AC has been making cars more or less all along since Shelby Cobras ceased being made. Why isn't CS making the cars with AC once again?

Rick

Great Asp · #43 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 07:20 AM

Quote:
"no, Eric.
Ford and CS sent them the 260 after originally planning the car with the earlier 221 cu V-8"

Thanks Ron!

Not much of a history buff for Cobras, so I Thank You for the answer!

eric

SSS · #44 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 07:57 AM

According to my research, Ford rescinded AC's permission to use the name 'Cobra' last year. It's a property of FoMoCo. Of course, I'm sure a few greenbacks could change their mind.

This whole debate gives some perspective to the general pissing and moaning about who's car is a Cobra and who's isn't. I'm pretty sure the AC is a sweet car that looks like, sounds like, smells like, and drives like a Cobra. They can't call it a Cobra for legal reasons. It has nothing to do with the car itself. So, if you want an AC 427, and can afford it, go get yourself one and call it a Cobra all you want. I'm fairly certain you won't be sued for it.

You can buy an authentic Cobra from SAI, and pay for the privilege, or choose from the wide variety of replicas. Anywhere from my horribly indecent $26k car to Unique to ERA to Kirkham, and all points between. It's understandable why those who were involved in the creation of the Cobra don't want other people to profit from it, but as the courts proved, there is no one person or entity that can lay claim to it. It belongs to US!

REAL 1 · #45 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 08:17 AM

Bandit 1: Your history of the car is all mixed up. Ernie, Brent and SSS stated it correctly. Its all in the history books. Just read.

AC never ever heard of the "Cobra" before CS came along. They were on life support.

Brent is correct. There was substantial developement to the 289 that made it the legend it is. That developement was by the crew at SAI. AC built the chasis and body. SAI did the rest. Without developement by SAI do you really think the AC Ace was capable of the accomplishments achieved by the Cobra? Get REAL. As I understand SAI did consider building the chasis themselves but for cost efficiency reasons continued with AC especially as to the 427 WHICH WAS NOT AN AC DESIGN BUT A SAI DESIGN THROUGH MILES AND ARNING AT FORD! AC just built to specs.

SAI could have easily built either 289 or 427 from the ground up but based on the available tooling ready at AC and the labor rates allowing AC to supply the chasis and build the 427 chasis and body TO SPECS was the better choice from a cost and time stand point. You don't think with the talent they had such as Brock, Remmington etc., etc. they couldn't fabricate the chasis and body? In their sleep they could have.

SAI is building today and offering to the public what they created, not AC. Anyone skilled in tooling can build the Cobra physical chasis and body. The "essence" of the Cobra and what it was and is has always been generated and created by SAI/CS and always will. The legendary name is Shelby Cobra, not AC (Just compare the prices of an original Shelby CSX to an original AC COB).

The Cobra was and always will be Shelby's baby. Period.

There can be only one Cobra. Its was and always will be from Shelby and SAI. Rightfully so.

In the end I think if given the choice most guys would rather have a Cobra from Shelby than any other.

Dan: Why does it seem that all SPF guys are becoming so beligerant and confrontational these days. Maybe I just bring out the best in them.

SSS · #46 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by REAL 1
In the end I think if given the choice most guys would rather have a Cobra from Shelby than any other.
[/b]

Like I said, the courts proved that no one person or entity can lay claim to the car that is called Cobra. The name Cobra is owned by Ford. Still, I can put badges on my car and call it a Cobra. What matters to me is how the car looks, how it sounds, and how it drives. I want the best quality Cobra [replica] I can afford. If I were in the market for the best Cobra [replica] available, the legality of naming it a Cobra would play absolutely no part. If SAI offered the best product, I would buy it. Anything else is superficial, political, capitalistic bullpoo.

REAL 1 · #47 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 09:25 AM

No, I think what the courts proved is that the shape/trade dress is now in the public domain.

The name, logo and rights to use the name are protected and proprietary.

Like I said, "most" would IMHO rather have a Shelby Cobra. To some owning a Shelby Cobra that has value, REAL or imagined.

Maybe their new ad campaign will read "Wouldn't you REALly rather have a "Shelby"?

R U YELLA · #48 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 09:36 AM

I wish that a few more people would get a Shelby so that the waiting list at ERA would get me a car sooner.

Catch ya later
Ed

SSS · #49 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by REAL 1
No, I think what the courts proved is that the shape/trade dress is now in the public domain.

That's what I meant by 'the car known as Cobra'. What the courts proved is that the car itself has always been in the public domain.

c_dundee · #50 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 11:16 AM

My mates have confirmed that AC Cars is owned by a bloke named Alan Labinsky who lives in the EU. AC uses Jimmy Price for some manufacturing... but that's it. I was told there is no agreement between AC and Jimmy Price, in fact I hear there is legal action between the two, but hey no worries. I have also discovered that in the past lawsuit between AC and Shelby, which AC lost, required AC to destroy all the original tooling? This was in fact carried out and an affidavit provided to the courts. Hey mates, who knows what AC means by "original" it sounds like new tooling of an original design. No worries, my money is on ole Shelby. Good on ya anyway!

sambrozy · #51 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 11:42 AM

I orginally hear or read that Price had been given the AC rights outside of the UK. This I was told was in done to repay a debt. It is a wonder how stuffing an American engine in a British car could create this mess.

REAL 1 · #52 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 01:13 PM

SSS: No. You are incorrect. The shape wasn't "always" in the public domain. Shelby abandoned the car and stopped production and never sought to protect the "shape". It then fell into the public domain.

Had Shelby aggressively protected the car from being copied by replica companies from the get go and had he stayed in business from 1968 forward I think the result would be much different, at least here in the States.

ColoradoCobras. · #53 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 01:30 PM

I don't think it really matters what they call it...are they going to mass stamp produce these and flood the market with quasi-cars that have poor fit and finish or are they going to just strengthen the reputation and quality that I have already seen from Superformance.
BTW
I went to Kirkam's web site...very impressive. I may have to take a ride from Denver to Provo to see a "new" classic!

Regards,
Don
www.ColoradoCobras.com
Supercharger installers and Unique Cobra builders

SSS · #54 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by REAL 1
SSS: No. You are incorrect. The shape wasn't "always" in the public domain. Shelby abandoned the car and stopped production and never sought to protect the "shape". It then fell into the public domain.

Had Shelby aggressively protected the car from being copied by replica companies from the get go and had he stayed in business from 1968 forward I think the result would be much different, at least here in the States.

That's your opinion, and I don't agree with it. The 427 Cobra body cannot be disconnected in shape from the 289 Cobra body which cannot be disconnected in shape from the AC Ace body which cannot be disconnected in shape from the Ferrari 166 Barchetta body. That's why Shelby can't claim it. Tojeiro has more claim to it than Shelby, but I don't think he's been petty enough to try to sue over it. He wouldn't win either, anyway. If Ferrari tried, that would be an acknowlegement of the Cobra, which I'm sure they'd just prefer to forget about.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Cobra is the car that has such an industry built around replicating it. No one person or entity can lay claim to the shape as their idea. It's always been that way. It evolved through many different people and entities, not least of them being Carroll Shelby, SAI, and Ford. As the courts proved, about all they can lay claim to is the name Cobra (as used on an automobile), logos, and such.

FYI, I saw the other day that the Cobra golf club company has a driver with a model name of 427. The head size may be 427 ccs. I thought that was a funny coincidence.

REAL 1 · #55 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 01:39 PM

Since CS never tried to timely protect the Cobra from being replicated I'll guess we'll never really know how the courts might have ruled.

But regardless people in the "know" and who understand Cobra history will always associate it with Carroll Shelby and SAI first and formost and AC a close second.

Randall Thomas · #56 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 01:43 PM

As I understand it, Superformance does not make or own the AC, the makers of Superformance, the company Mr. James Price owns, does.

Jimmy told me in person, face to face, that the AC will be a "very special car", and "not for everyone". It will be true to authenticity... painfully so in the fact that there is and should be no comparison between it and the Superformance line up.

However, just like the Superformance, Mr. Prices incredible attention to fit, detail and perfection will be applied to the AC, and already has been which resulted in the work of art many have seen in the recent unveiling of COX2610, as shown here...

http://performanceunlimited.com/scof/cox2610.html

/Randall

KobraKarl · #57 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 01:47 PM

Evan,

What does the "Period correct" badge say in the center of your steering wheel...........

KK

Excaliber · #58 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 02:05 PM

Oh boy, don't even get me started on the subject of the Cobra being a copy of the Ferrari Barcheta styling. But this guy SAID it was, blah blah blah.

So what was the early 50's Autsin Healey 100 copied from? Or how about the 1951 SIATA 750 Sport Spider TIPO, which looks a LOT like a Cobra! Maybe THAT was copied from the early AC cars? Wait, I got it, Ferrari stole the design from Maserrati before they could launch their 1953 car shown here?

Uh,,,,,who's on first?

Ernie

EDIT:
Darn it,,,still trying to figure out how to make the PIC appear, NOT the link!

SSS · #59 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by REAL 1
But regardless people in the "know" and who understand Cobra history will always associate it with Carroll Shelby and SAI first and formost and AC a close second.

If I were to rank the importance of the various peoples involved in the evolution of the Cobra, I would also rank Shelby first. My point isn't to discredit Shelby, but to point out why he has no 'trade dress' claim.

DKing · #60 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 02:23 PM

Any details available on the AC Cobra? For a while there (70's? 80's?), AC continued building the cars, but with a more uphostered interior, including seats with headrests and a leather center column that met the dash. I never cared for that look too much. My preference is the business-only, 60's interior myself with no center column and standard seats.

Anybody find the details on the web anywhere?