AC enters the fray - Page 4

SSS · #61 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Excaliber
Oh boy, don't even get me started on the subject of the Cobra being a copy of the Ferrari Barcheta styling. But this guy SAID it was, blah blah blah.

So what was the early 50's Autsin Healey 100 copied from? Or how about the 1951 SIATA 750 Sport Spider TIPO, which looks a LOT like a Cobra! Maybe THAT was copied from the early AC cars? Wait, I got it, Ferrari stole the design from Maserrati before they could launch their 1953 car shown here?

If Shelby had taken a '50s Austin Healey and made it into the Cobra, and an industry of replicas of that car emerged, would Shelby be able to sue over the 'trade dress' of a modified Austin Healey? NOPE. That's my point. I didn't say it was a copy of a Ferrari. I would say, however, that John Tojeiro would never sue over someone copying the AC Ace. You can decide for yourself as to why he wouldn't.

Excaliber · #62 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 02:31 PM

We'll never know for sure, it would have been a controversial law suit even in 1968. I would say by 1967 the AC (now a Cobra) had "evolved" to the point where it was fundamentally different in design from the slab side's of '61-62.

And I mean "design" in virtually every aspect. Suspension, interior, frame, body style. It was uniguely Shelby by '67. Would the courts have bought the argument? I don't know,,,,, maybe!

Ernie

Randall Thomas · #63 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 03:06 PM

The latest AC, *COX2610*, is an FIA car with an authentic vintage race oriented set up. It does look racy and old, that's for sure, but I'm not sure my wife would like riding in the passenger seat on a lawn chair (although, no one said she has to go along ;-)

I am not sure as to the other offerings for the future of this AC, but I was led to beleive that while they only plan on producing no more than 40 of these cars a year, they are going to put every effort into them to make them the absolutely best pieces of art possible, suitable for rolling into any museum and making it an instant exhibit of fine craftsmanship and meticulous workmanship. They do want to make each one as special as the next or previous car. It will be interesting to see these cars come in one at a time, as there already are as we speak.

I'll hope to get photos whenever possible. And I like to get them "Raw" before they get into the dealers hands and completed... that's where the real details can be looked over, just like in the above link to the photos I supplied of COX2610.

/Randall

REAL 1 · #64 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 03:24 PM

SSS: The point is that the AC lost its recognition here during the 60's and the car became known, marketed, sold and raced as a Cobra. It was known and recognized as a Cobra, a Shelby Cobra. Not an AC.

If Shelby acted to protect the trade dress shape of the Cobra which did evolve based on SAI developement and in 427 was SAI's design I think he would have won. He would have had a much better shot at it anyway.

Randall Thomas · #65 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 04:26 PM

Jim Price was called just a few minutes ago, as he is on a business visit to AC in the UK. These words are from Jim Price himself from his hotel room in London, right now...

The facts are that Jim Price has acquired from the owners of the AC brand, the sole rights to the intellectual property and tooling for the AC Mk I, Mk II and Mk III rolling chassis built by AC Cars.

Jim has also taken over for his profit or loss, the Frimley factory, the staff and any parts that are required. He also acquired the rights to use the Autocraft brands relative to the Mk I, Mk II and Mk III.

The original AC aluminum bodied rolling chassis will continue to be built in the Frimley factory. whilst Jim's Hi-Tech Automotive plant in South Africa will be building the fiber glass and carbon fiber bodied versions of the AC Mk II and Mk III.

The Frimley AC's will be distributed from the UK until a US distribution network now in the process of being established, is in place. The fiber glass and carbon fiber bodied versions will join their aluminum bodied siblings late in 2003 or in early 2004.

There you have it.

/Randall

Dan Semko · #66 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 04:27 PM

Evan,
A wise man once stated: "few remember who designed the Mach-1, the Boss 429 and the F-150 Lightning... but many remember the company that built it".

Excaliber · #67 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 07:08 PM

Dan,,,,,yup that fits Shelby all right! But who was AC?

Ernie

Dan Semko · #68 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 08:13 PM

Ernie,
It's more than just Shelby. A gentleman that's been "selectively excluded" from the Ford/ Shelby celebrations is Peter Brock who was instrumental in the development of the Shelby cobra and with the new Brock Coupe.
What seems to be eluding some of the posts is that Jim Price has virtually salvaged AC from disappearing and financial ruin. Everyone is so busy pointing fingers, that the most important aspect has gone unrecognized, we consumers now have more choices and newer options. Isn't that the whole point?

Edley Rondinone · #69 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 08:30 PM

Growing up here in L.A., us kids always called Cobras "AC Cobras"....never called them "Shelby Cobras"..."Shelbys" were always Mustangs..."Cobras" were sometimes those Fairlanes or Torinos as well, with 428 CJs, or 429 CJs, or 429 SCJs...technically, they may NOT have been "AC Cobras", but they were known to all of us as "AC Cobras".

Excaliber · #70 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 09:44 PM

Dan, the point of having more choices is well taken!

Following you analogy of who is remembered, Brock, Miles and others who worked with Shelby blend into to background of history. Shelby and Ford become prominent figures in the publics mind, and the history books.

Now for those of us who have a clue, of course the debate rages on about the various rolls individuals played in the drama. Did Brock actually "build" it? Hammer out the aluminum skin, weld the frame, etc? Maybe some! Maybe Shelby turned wrenches on the some of the Cobras also?

It's the architect that gets the credit when the smoke has cleared. And no doubt in my mind, Brock was a giant in that regard. Good or bad, he falls under Shelbys shadow. History is a fickle thing. The burden to get it "right" falls on the few, the modern Cobra clan, the keepers of the flame.

Ernie

brentfenimore · #71 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 10:44 PM

Carroll Shelby has never laid claim that he was the only person responsible for the creation and refinement of the 289 Street Car, 289 FIA, Cobra Daytona Coupe or the 427 S/C. Come to think of it he has not ever to my knowledge claimed that SAI and Ford were the only companies involved in the development, engineering, prototyping, production, racing, marketing or the World Manufacturers Cup Championship. As a matter of fact anyone that spends much time with CS can confirm the fact that he always gives the credit for his and the many projects he has been involved with success to the team of engineers, designers, fabricators, technicians, drivers, sales, marketing, management, ouside services and companies as well as the clean up crew. I realize most of you have not had the oppertunity to sit and chat with him on a one to one basis but be assured he is not a credit monger by any means.

I have heard a lot about JP putting his money were his mouth is and what a fine businessman he is and this is not intended to sling mud on those statements or Mr. Price.

Carroll Shelby visited several European manufacturing facilities in 1960 & 61 in an attempt to solidify an idea he had about a sports car that would dominate the racing industry. Utilizing his name in the racing to get him through the doors of multiple companies he finally came up with a company that was needing a true platform in order to stay in business. Shelby then had the balls to go to his contacts at Ford, with nothing in hand, and present an oppertunity portrait that would combine the handling and nimbelness of a European sportscar with the power of an American V-8. His next move was to secure a $25,000.00 loan in order to build a prototype that could be presented in person to the top executives and get their buyin to build a car that would kick the Corvettes ass as well as compete in international racing and win.

If I have to complete this story you should go to the library and check it out for yourself.

I would like to think that we are all fans of the COBRA and that we are all proud of it's heritage no matter which stories we care to believe. I have been fortunate in that I have lived a dream of working with a car and a company I could only dream about as a child. I am prejudice towards CS and SAI however I can say that Shelby was not only the father of the Cobra but also the man that propelled it to the greatness we all speak of today.

We have several projects on the plate at this time and can only hope that they will be half as successful as the platform that kicked Farrari's ass back in the 60's.

R Brent Fenimore

Randall Thomas · #72 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 11:17 PM

Brent, great historical account, but lets step into recent history for a moment. I noticed you did not comment or mention your previous statement where you said...

(brentfenimore wrote on 9/8/03 8:44am) "...All, I think you should all know that AC IS NOT OWNED by James Price OR Superformance. This is DIRECTLY FROM THE ACTUAL OWNERS OF AC. I think they will be intrested to find out that Mr. Price has claimed ownership of their company. I WILL GET BACK TO THIS after I get a word from them on what type of response they would like to give..."

By this I assume that you had no clue whatsoever that AC was purchased by Jim Price months ago. Even so, we are all interested in "that response" you mentioned above. I think after that statement, we've earned it.

Some might acertain by your post that some people at Shelby are still laying claims to things that are not fact. I don't happen to think that, but you might want to follow up on what you said as well as research your information more throroughly next time.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, however, your claims and statements you made were also harsh in not only their misinformation, but also by insinuating that Mr. Price and those that said AC indeed was purchased by him, were intentionally spreading untruths. And of course, they were not at all.

/Randall

Excaliber · #73 (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 12:02 AM

Randall,
Your statement concerning J. Prices' purchase of AC virtually lock and stock and barrel MONTHS AGO is laughable. That "rumor" has been circulating for "months" WITHOUT verification in any meaningful way! Well I talked to this guy or that guy who's mailmans brother over heard, yada yada yada,,,,,,,,,,

I have "no clue what so ever" how people can come to that conclusion based on "hear say" absent of FACTS. Makes it look like your the one spreading "untruths", intentionally no less! Maybe you should research your information a little closer before you blast someone who's opinion you don't agree with!

I have no idea what your reference to Shelby "laying claims to" is all about. The previous post was pretty clear to me. I must have missed the sinister interpretation or hidden meaning you seem to have found in it. Just what are you "insuating" here?

Ernie

Randall Thomas · #74 (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 12:12 AM

Once again, this came directly from the real owner of AC, James Price. Not second hand, not a rumor, not a myth... but right from his own words dated today. This is not opinion Ernie, just what the new owner has relayed to me at the request for this information.

The truth is sometimes difficult to accept, especially when so many have have incorrectly stated otherwise. So, I would respect and encourage anyone for attempting to find and present any fact that might disprove this truth.

I do not know anymore than you, and that's why I sought out the factual statement made by the new owners of AC, Mr. James Price.

/Randall

brentfenimore · #75 (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 12:13 AM

Randall,

James Price does not own AC or their assets, I am not avoiding my earlier post but rateher awaiting a response from the legitimate owners that I assure you will not be here say by any means. If you have any signed document stating that Price is the owner please post it post haste so we can get on with fruitful conversation and stop with the petty insults.

R Brent Fenimore

Excaliber · #76 (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 12:23 AM

If J. Price owns or doesn't own AC, in whole, in part, or whatever it doesn't make a lot of difference to me one way or another. It's not about being a "hard truth" to handle, it's about "credibility" of the statements yea or nea.

I believe, you believe what your pretty sure he told you, and I think he believes what he thought you heard him say, really I do! What the heck it all means is yet to be determined,,,,,,I think.

Ernie

Randall Thomas · #77 (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 12:26 AM

Brent, that's fair enuff. and I apologize if it appeared you were insulted, but the feeling was mutual from your prior statement. You're right tho, lets make this into a good thread one way or another, right? I will be in Vegas in a few months, and I promise you a drink or 10 on me, no matter what.

I'm sure you would not want to make anymore statements without searching out the real facts, so I appreciate your effort to get to the real deal yourself in the next day or so.

Based on your earlier thoughts, I think you'll be surprised in what you find.

BTW, I'm not exactly on the executive level for SPF (lol) or privy to their documents as you may be with Carroll's file cabinet... but I'll ask around and see what more they can do to show they have been paying the bills at AC for some time now. I'll see if I can get Jim to stand in front of the AC factory with today's UK newspaper, or whatever else I can get. :-) Just keeping it light hearted

-Randall

Dan Semko · #78 (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 05:46 AM

Brent,
Please inform us just how Carroll Shelby interacted with the Mabee Brothers and their car which was powered by a Chrysler originally and set the land speed record. Also, who provided the funding for Shelby to make his debut in Europe.
If we're going to address accuracy and fairness, maybe you can shed some light on why Peter Brock was not included/invited in the Ford Gala Celebration and not permitted to sit with Gurney, Bondeurant and the remainder of the influential cobra people.
Thank you for the research.

REAL 1 · #79 (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 10:14 AM

What difference does it really make one way or the other if JP owns AC in whole or part?

Why should anyone care?

bmalone · #80 (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 10:21 AM

Its heresay, not here say da*nit.