AC enters the fray - Page 6

REAL 1 · #**101** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 04:42 PM

I don't have time to speak to them all. And if I were to ask them I wouldn't want their "opinions" I'd want factual information based on specific questions. I am writing just what I've learned from reading many books on the Cobra. They are not my "own words" but facts as recorded in authoritative books on the subject. I don't profess to be an expert but all the sources I have read by recognized authorities seem to all say the same things factually. The history has been recorded.

I don't need anyones opinion. We have clearly documented and recorded historical facts.

Who says different? Who have you talked too and what have they said? Based on what facts?

speedraser · #**102** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 05:21 PM

Evan,

With all due respect to Shelby, do you REALy think that a '60s COX or COB car is a replica???

Just because Shelby could have built the bodies/chassis doesn't take away from the fact that Shelby did NOT build the bodies/chassis -- AC did. You are consistent in your quest to have everyone appreciate Shelby's role -- why denigrate AC's?

BTW, the AC Ace was and is a very desirable car in its own right. Few were sold here in the US, but they have a very loyal following across the pond.

pderouss · #**103** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 05:23 PM

Computerworks.

I suspect that I have read the same books and do not reach the same conclusions. Having spent the last 30 years working in the motor industry I have occasionally had the privilege and opportunity to have access to people who were directly involved. Maybe they just try to humour my views because I have an English accent?

Mr Bruce. Unless I am mistaken the world championship win was spearheaded by the Coupe While this was clearly a vehicle that showed much more of Shelby's ( and more particularly Brock's)influence it is not the vehicle that the vast majority of people associate with a Cobra, nor is it the car that the vast majority of users of this site replicate. It used the original (albeit modified) leaf spring chassis as desisgned by Tojeiro. The Shelby modified (with a lot of help from Ford) coil spring chassis with its 427 engine which most people replicate was a dismal failure as a race car.

Excaliber · #**104** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 05:34 PM

One of the first changes Shelby made to the "AC" was suspension mods. The "ACE" as delivered from England was not up to the task. It was an anitquated design even in 1962, but it was "good enough" with the mods to run against what else was out there at the time.

I believe the REAL success of the Cobra lies more along the lines of "power to weight" ratio far more than a Tojeiro inspired suspension!

Ernie

Mark IV · #**105** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 05:45 PM

..don't even joke about replicating the invalid chairs or other products. I hold the worldwide rights to all non-automotive products. I will soon be offering fire tenders and shell casings as "genuine non AC built, genuine AC products left over form previous production." AC warehoused many of these in anticipation of the day when they would be needed again. They will be offered for an slightly obscene markup as they are "REAL" and not "reproductions or kits" but rather genuine AC war materiel. How about a souped up Sociable?

On the serious side, there was an AC built WW2 fire tender that the factory had in 1999 that they could not GIVE away to any museum or other entity, no one wanted it! It was slightly too large to go in my carry on luggage so I did not bring it home....

Rick

pderouss · #**106** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 06:11 PM

Excaliber.

I agree that the track success of the Cobra was down to it's power to weight ratio. The power came from an existing Ford engine and most of the fundamentals of the rest came from AC. As with any significant change to vehicle specification there were obviously modifications that were required but there was no basic changes of design. When the chassis was more radically modified ( to coil springs) the track successes ceased.

The current success of the vehicle is down to it's having one of the greatest shapes this side of a Ferrari GTO. The shape is not radically different to the Ace from which it was derived.

As always I do not wish to downplay the role that Shelby played in being the person who brought a good set of people and components together in a classic example of Anglo-American co-operation. What niggles me is attempts by people to denegrate the role of other key players in the equation.

There is a saying in the auto business (and probably many other businesses) that successfull products have many fathers and bad ones are rapidly disowned. Maybe we should do a paternity or DNA test on the Cobra?

MKIV

I knew you would be ahead of me on this great business opportunity. I will revert to plan B which is to produce the first replica of a Reliant Robin.

acaskie · #**107** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 06:33 PM

Maybe my memory is failing me, but I had a later model Ace a few years back. Seems to me it had the same leaf-spring suspension that is in the CS 7000 cars Shelby is currently producing. It also had the same smaller opening on the front clip and front discs.

It didn't have flared fenders, but the car only weighed about 1700 lbs, so the tires could be pretty skinny and no flares were necessary. It wouldn't take a genius to figure out that with tons more horsepower, a stronger rear end and bigger tires and brakes would be necessary. That isn't genius, it's what every hotrodder since the dawn of the automobile has done.

The Ace was, for it's time, one of the lightest, most nimble and successful sports cars as well as the best looking. Shelby didn't pick it to drop a big motor into just for the heck of it. The Ace was the perfect choice.

There is no question that much of the allure of the Cobra derives from it's classic and graceful bodywork. That wasn't Shelby's design. If anything, the 427 body style, which he had more input into designing, is a much less graceful, more bloated, and clearly derivative effort.

Does anyone think that if Shelby had picked, say a TR3, to drop his Detroit motor into, that it would have the same following today? Would everyone be falling all over themselves saying how beautiful the design is? Would it still be the most copied bodystyle in the replica market? I don't think so.

It's true that AC no longer had a motor to put in their pretty little chassis, so putting the Ford V-8 into it worked out for everyone. They owe a lot to Shelby for his foresight, but without AC, I'm not sure that Shelby wouldn't just be a footnote either.

Bart Carter · #**108** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 06:59 PM

Hey,

I used to have a TR3.

Be careful.

Bart Carter · #**109** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pderouss When the chassis was more radically modified ( to coil springs) the track successes ceased.

True, but there wasn't a cause and effect relationship. The 427 is (was) the faster car. The track successes ceased for other reasons.

AC Cobra · #**110** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 07:08 PM

And you thought the history was complete for the Cobra. Will, I guess Rinsey Mills is already writing another chapter to his book "AC Cobra". This will get spicy with Carroll Shelby's lawsuits against the replicators, court rulings where everybody wins, SPR's new coupe being impounded at POE, SAI producing something other than aluminum in South Africa of all places, AC Cars making a thrust to penetrate the US Cobra market, and AC Cars now being guided by CS's nemesis JP who is none other than the head of SPR. Wow!

Maybe Mills can get it to the book stores for Christmas.

Rick

David Kirkham · #**111** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 07:23 PM

Evan,

With all due respect, (and many thanks for your immense help in the booth at the NY Auto Show):

You state, "Today Shelby American through their own fabricators builds their Cobra (and it has always and will always be "their Cobra") to exact historical specs and with better quality than AC ever did in the 60's."

Just exactly what do you mean by "exact historical specs?"

David

Excaliber · #**112** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 08:12 PM

Not to take away from AC at all,,,,,BUT,,,,there were many other choices that were considered. I'm betting the TR-3 was not among them (sorry Hal, great car it is,

).

But consider the graceful lines of the Austin Healey 3000's, much like a an ACE, as many European cars of the era were in fact. And one of the cars he considered. I doubt Shelby was looking for a "graceful" car as much as he was looking for the right car to make into a "race car". He was GOING to build a race car one way or another! He was GOING to find the right partners, sooner or later. Donald Healey was doing fine without Shelby, he didn't NEED to form a partnership at that time.

Besides the Healey would have required substantial frame and suspension modifications. But if the right "deal" could have been worked out, thats what we would be driving today! And it would LOOK as good, in my opinion. A rose by another name, in the end.

Good call going with AC, they needed the business, they had a car that was "in the ball park" AND the partnership benefitted all concerned. No doubt, AC was ecstatic at this opportunity that, in my opinion, "saved their butt"!

Myself, I prefer the 427 body style. It sure doesn't look "bloated" to me! It looks "manly"! It looks graceful in a "serious" way! I love the bulging muscle look of the flared fenders. I'm also glad we have a choice between the two extremes, Slab Side or 427.

Had it not been for AC, Shelby simply would have found someone else. AC, and there is little doubt in my mind, would have been the footnote. I'm glad to see it all worked for both great companies! I used to look at my Big Healey and think,,,,,,"What might have been".

Ernie

Dan Semko · #**113** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 08:24 PM

TC is indeed spot on. The Superformance family knew about this acquisition several months ago and when I posted my predictions 18 months ago after some investigation, everyone thought I was fabricating the story.

Evan,
Maybe you'd better review who fabricated our CSX's and the improvements and innovations that have been incorporated. Does it make a difference.....you can now bet your life on it!

Excaliber · #**114** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 08:39 PM

Looks like a LOT of us have been out of what ever "information loop" your referring to. The "rumors" have been thick about this subject for a long while without any substantial "clarity" as to it's meaning. Only in the last couple of DAYS has anything specific been offered! You think that would tend to make one "skeptical"?

My "guess" is, there have been "negotiations" on various forms of ownership, control, licensing rights, partner ships, investors, etc that have been going on for "months". Paying someones "bills" while in negotiation does not an "owner" make! Perhaps the "fat lady" is NOW getting ready to sing? What "tune" will that be I wonder,,,, still.

Don't make squat difference to me, but the issue IS a hot one for Cobra afficianados in general.

Ernie

ToyCollector · #**115** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 09:48 PM

Dano, DK is the one who is spot on. I have seen their welds.

Randall Thomas · #**116** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 10:06 PM

Ern, you'd be guessing wrong. After Jim left the DV Fling, many of the SPF owners already knew this then already. It's just like I stated, word for word. You will find out for yourself very shortly once Brent get's back from speaking with the owner of AC cars ... Jim Price, as he promised a few days ago he'd do.

Dan has indeed been right all along, but then again, he knew it all along too... he was not "guessing." This is not any "new" news... you are just now first _listening_ to what Dan has been saying all along, now that a few others have provided some of their first hand accounts that obviously can not be disputed or disproved. I even got Jim Price himself, the owner of AC to explain his ownership from a phone in a hotel room near his AC plant... and that still can't accepted by a few here. While I understand that this is absolutely incredible news to some and skepticism is natural, I would also think "someone" would have been able to come up with "something" to discredit the new ownership of AC... but of course that would be impossible.

I would encourage anyone's attempt to prove otherwise, but no one will, because the truth is as I've stated before. Go back and read it closely, very closely.

Since it doesn't make any difference to you, then try not to let it bother you so much. Wait and see. Mabee check with Brent and see if he did anything to find anything out, it shouldn't be that hard to do. He was dead sure of himself, and appeared to be in recent contact with AC by his comments, so let the chips fall where they may and see who really knows of what he speaks.

I have can not say what Mr. Price has in mind for the AC plant, cars or brand, but knowing Jim, whatever he does, you can be assured it will be something to see.

/Randall

Excaliber · #**117** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 10:29 PM

What bothers me is the large number of postings over the last year or so about who owns what or in what capacity, some say yea some say nea. Man, who's a guy to believe???

Now add to the "mix" the multitude of comments over the months about AC offering this or that car back then, in the future, or now, and until just very recently (days) it hasn't happened! Several different names along the way have been associated with AC in the last few months, as being the "new owner", dealer, etc.

This whole AC Frimley factory buyers, sellers, "dealers", law suits accusations etc. in general has had more twists and turns than Hwy 1. Rumors have been rampant for a long while!

The issue has hurt the credibility of those whom I would like to think are offering "accurate" facts. And were not talking about a couple of "newbies" here either!

Frankly I don't know WHO or WHAT to believe about AC anymore. Saying "I told you so" ignores the very "real" controversy that has surrounded this topic. While I know you can't believe everything you read on the Web, I like to think Club Cobra is a "cut above" that. Not so sure now, no matter how it turns out,,,,,,,,and thats a loss!

Ernie

Jamo · #**118** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 10:37 PM

Little Davey Kirkham...you...you..."fabricator" you!

Does this mean the big-a$$ed specs for my car are historical? I wanna be in a registry somewhere.

Randall Thomas · #**119** (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Excaliber

"Frankly I don't know WHO or WHAT to believe about AC anymore..."

"The issue has hurt the credibility of those whom I would like to think are offering "accurate" facts. And were not talking about a couple of "newbies" here either!"

"...While I know you can't believe everything you read on the Web, I like to think Club Cobra is a "cut above" that. Not so sure now, no matter how it turns out,,,,,,,,and thats a loss!"

Ernie, I hear what your saying, and I agree with you 100 percent. It's tough enough to wade through all the scam email in our personal mail boxes as it is, let alone getting the wrong information from folks you'd think would know the facts, and certainly not state them as factual when in reality they didn't have a clue. Makes it tough on anyone's credibility on other issues as well.

One thing I can tell you, is that from what I understood from the investigating I had to do to get this info, is that Jim Price didn't appear to look at the purchase of AC as anything that needed to be "touted" in a huge press release where other firms feel they absolutely must any time a door knob is changed. He just wanted to save the little car maker from extinction for the purpose of keeping the AC legend alive and going. He just couldn't sit back and allow it to dissappear like it has been so close to doing so in the past on several occasions as others have illustrated. Beyond that, you'd have to ask Jim himself on the details.

When I asked for clarification regarding the AC purchase, Jim was not really too concerned if anyone knew one way or another, so the revelation of this info was fairly straight forward. There is no huge European empire prepared to strike, or at least not that I'm aware at the moment ;-) But then again, who knows?

These latter comments are not anything other than my observation, based on what I have seen, heard and experienced in the past months in this regard.

Now we just need to hear from Brent on what he found out... I'd be interested in comparing notes and listing names... as the specific people involved who really are in charge of AC are very important in backing up any credible statements made here on in.

Hang in there Ernie... it won't be long now.

/Randall

Mark IV · #**120** (**permalink**) 09-11-2003, 04:51 AM

..so on 3-24-2002 I posted in the thread "Ford rescinds AC's use of "Cobra" trademark...

Scott,

Even 'ol CS isn't that stupid. Actually he did not "save" AC the first time. AC would have survived as a manufacturer of the golf cars, invalid carriages and truck bodies that really were the core of the positive financial end of the business.

When the next receivership comes to AC (and it will, rest assured) I will bet the buyer will come from a country that has "South" in it's name and is known as a "Super" person. One guy from the same country has put AC into its' present incantation and position. I would expect that he will be aquiring the name and none of the products per se.

Just my 2 cents.

Rick

Was my prediction "inside information", nope, just common sense and knowing what was going on. The CVA ( a form of receivership) came in June of 2002 and Jimmy steped in around September...

Rick

"