AC enters the fray

[REAL 1]

David K: Your welcome. Had a great time and it was for a good cause.

What I meant by historical specs was that the car you build and which in aluminum variant is sold to Shelby and used by Shelby is true to original speciifications, nearly 100% so just using better build techniques and materials.

[REAL 1]

I am not down playing AC's role in the Cobra storey. Not at all. Clearly the Cobra would not look the way it does today if not for AC.

Name for me the engine the Ace was using at the time Shelby showed up. There wasn't an engine.

Name for me the World Championships AC won with or without the Ace. Nadda.

Name for me the persons at AC that were involved in the developement of the Cobra beyond installing the engine in the first prototype. How deep was there involvement. Not very.

Name for me the people at AC involved in the racing developement of the FIA 289 Cobra, Daytona and 427 Cobra. How deep was there involvement. Almost non-existant.

Name for me the people at AC involved in Shelby's quest for the World Manufactures Championship.

Do you really think the Ace would be remembered today if Shelby had not come along and developed it into a world champion and had not developed the 427? LOL. If you do its Comical. The first 289's raced prior to Shelby's developement folded like cheap cameras and DNF'd.

While the Slabside retains more in common with the Ace than an FIA variant or USRRC variant there were clearly improvements made by Shelby which were incorporated into later production. Moreover much of the cars completion was done by SAI once it arrived.

As to the 427, while you may argue that it retains much of the 289's body shape, which it clearly does it was still designed by Shelby, Miles and Arning. I think they did a great job retaining the original lines while making the body larger for its TOTALLY NEW chasis again designed by Miles and Arning. To me the 427 is gorgeous and is elegant and menacing all at the same time. They look evil and blindingly fast just sitting there. Not many cars can cause as much awe and match the pure magnitism of the 427 Cobra. Pretty and elegant don't cut it.

While the 289 deserves its recognition as a racing champion it wasn't until the 427 was born that the Cobra cemented its position as a performance legend around the world and its the 427 that enabled the Cobra legend to span generations and stand the test of time. All you need to do is look at which variant the replicar industry began copying and it wasn't the 289.

When Joe Q public thinks "Cobra" 9 out of 10 are thinking 427. IMHO. That has Shelby all over it.

Dan my friend, I am well aware of where my chasis and body were fabricated. And I know where my car was completed. I also know its a Shelby. I also know its an authentic Cobra from SAI and is registered with SAAC.

Whose name plates were on the Cobras from 1962 to 1968 when they rolled out of Shelby's shop onto American streets and tracks? Yeah, SAI.

Go compare values of an original CSX and COB. That says it all.

[RockSnake]

Ac has been offering these in England for years (thought they're not street-legal with a big-block). It has been about two years since I first read of their plans to again export them to the U.S. They also planned offer carbon-fiber and fiberglass bodies.

[Dan Semko]

Evan,
My poor malaligned New Jersey friend, once again in true plumbers fashion, you've managed to divert your fluid cerebral flow into perceiving that our CSX's are more than rebadged and slightly improved Kirkhams or Kimmons cars. I agree that the CSX label does carry an increased monetary value but if you simply remove the CSX badge, it becomes another replication of an original 60's production car. Similarly if you place that same badge on a new KMP and place it beside a CSX, they will be indistinguishable to even the most discerning eye.

You asked to name a person that was influential with the AC evolution: how about Peter Brock.

The performance legend of the cobra was cemented well before the introduction of the 427. The media exploitation in the United Staes certainly wasn't as acute as today nor was the racing interest. It was the 289 that opened the door for the rivalry with Corvette and subsequently the development of the 427SC.

The insanity of investing in our CSX's for "authenticity" is contagious and though it may represent a certain level of success in life, it is merely another passion that shares the platform with many very competent suitors. I plan to drive the hell out of my CSX as well as also my SPF and guess what, they are BOTH absolutely wonderful cars that provide valuable memories and experiences. Like Mikey in the old "Life" cereal commercial always said: "try it, you'll like it"

[Woodz428]

Since there has been a side focus on the design aspects of the cars, I will say that I love the 427 (actually better without the sidepipes and roll bar, the street version). But I fell in love with the car as a 289 in the '63 or '64 Road and Track magazine, what a Beauty, I still have the magazine and like to just look the pictures and read the specs ( as I think about it there was the Mustang in the same test magazine,so it was probably '64). The 427 was just a well conceived metamorphisis,but my heart still belongs to that wire wheeled, lithe, small block car that made me REALLY want one. I've been into cars since the mid 50's and THAT was the first car that I felt, I HAD TO OWN.By the way, I never got one, but I've ridden in several (including a nice local one) and still have that desire, but still can't afford it . Oh yeah, it's an AC.

[REAL 1]

Danny me boy, alas still dippin into some of the old laughing gas I see: Very simply, all four cars are indistinguishable from each other i.e., Original, KMP, CSX Continuation and AC. The AC is a tastey choice no doubt. You could rebadge any of them.

But in the end its Shelby that gave the car its magic and made it legend. Its the Shelby connection that made them Cobras. Its the Shelby imprimature that put the "Cobra" in the Cobra so to speak. Nothing can ever change that unless you want to revise history as some like to do.

As Bruce aptly put it "why buy an AC 427 when you coulda had a Shelby Cobra?"

[brentfenimore]

Sorry I have not gotten back to this for the past day and a half we have been relocating our server and the system has been down. I stand behind my original statement about the ownership of AC, as you can review on my earlier post I did confirm that Mr. Price is managing the manufacturing in question however I have been assured that he has no formal agreement in ref. to the assets he claims to own.

Once again I state that according to my sources AC has not changed ownership. I do not think it matters one way or the other as many have stated, but this is what I have been told by those sources that are a lot closer to the issue than many seem to believe. I am intrested on who is telling the truth but I have a business to run and have not had time to put my full attention to the discovery.

Would one of you legal beagles out there please look into the registry of ownership or who has filed taxes or something that can confirm this one way or the other so we can get on with fruitful discussions?

R Brent Fenimore

[Randall Thomas]

Brent I respectfully but confidently challenge your statement as being incorrect and innacurate. Jim Price owns AC _exactly_ as I've have stated previously in this thread. I would not state it if I did not know it to be absolutely true and have verified it with the owner of AC himself, Jim Price.

Please tell us your so called "source" so they can be called directly to verfiy their credibility, or in this case, lack thereof.

I have clearly stated that Jim Price, owner of AC was contacted and I printed his statements here for all to read. You have not provided one bit of your evidence that can be verified by anyone. Anyone here can contact Jim Price and verify what I have said. Your info, no one can.

And Brent, this IS a fruitful discussion... remember, it was about AC and who owns it, that is until you came into the room and for some reason, insists that it is not true, yet do not follow up with anything other than vague statements quoting undisclosed references while providing no names or even positions of your contacts.

Brent, I'm not saying that you should *have* to know that AC changed ownership a while ago and Jim Price is the owner, but your defiant remarks after the fact stating he is NOT the owner has to be challenged, especailly in the face of several others here who have also verified this fact, one even visiting the factory itself in doing so.

You must realize that if we're looking at a clear blue sky and you're telling us it's raining out, (FOUR times now), you can't just expect to walk away while it's still raining without some kind of explanation. ;-) After what you have and still are stating, I think we deserve a little more than that. Especially considering the position you represent at Shelby American when stating your "facts."

If your source is misleading you, that can be understandable. However, you are stating your source's information as hard fact, so you are now responsible for the accuracy of that source.

Brent, please supply us with more info such as names and your sources so we can see and verify what you are basing your opinion on.

/Randall

[computerworks]

Randall... weather report aside, I think there is a possibility you are both "kind of right."

When interviewed in June, Jim Price answered the following question for the Superformance community (quoted from their mailer):

Q.What is the relationship between Hi-Tech and AC cars?

Jim: We have purchased the sole rights to the AC Autocraft brand together with all the IP, tooling, equipment, bucks, jigs and fixtures, and will continue building the small block and big block street and competition models.

We have also taken over the London-based factory and staff to build these aluminum-bodied originals. We have not finalized distribution, but you may rest assured that the units will be competitively priced. They will definitely carry the correct 2000, 3000, or 6000 serial numbers together with the historically correct, AC designated prefix, depending on where they are shipped to.

(my emphasis)

AC Cars, as an entity, paper or otherwise, was not mentioned...only the Autokraft brand and products.

..and, BTW, I don't think anyone has to provide names and sources to validate their opinion.

[Randall Thomas]

Ron, Brent certainly does not regard his statement as an opinion. When someone in Brent's position makes statements and represents them as FACT, and then repeats them over and over again, then _HE_ has the obligation to back up what he says with whatever evidence necessary. It was *I* that considered his statements as nothing more than opinion, since they can not be facts if they are not true.

And Ron, we are talking about the FRIMLEY plant in England... we "both" can't be right becaue that is what I was referring to. Brent's statement said that was not true, in that Jim acquired the AC plant in Frimely. Simple as that.

I got a statement right from Jim Price, while Brent has done nothing other than repeat himself over and over again while offering nothing new.

I think everyone here including you and I want to get to the bottom of this and put it behind us, not dance around the fire throwing marshmallows into it. If brent chooses not to reveal any of his information, then so be it.

/Randall

[Jamo]

Thanks for posting that, Ron...I do hope folks know the difference between buying assets and buying a business. We've been discussing this at Gasholes in private--sort of a shadow jury, if you will.

As I asked there...is this someone buying Levi's "Dockers" brand and the plant where they are made, or did somebody buy "Levi's" itself?

Like most folks reading this, I find the scenarios here are only mildly interesting. Respective cheerleaders have come out to try to raise enthusiasm for their team, but in reality the game is decided by the players themselves.

Obviously, it is a good thing when a well-respected Cobra builder is able to continue operating in some form and fashion. It is good for all of us as consumers.

The only thing I've read thus far that really cracks me up is Evan's extreme use of the term "fabricator". I think that tagline could be used when refering to any of the entities being spoken about on these pages. If someone builds the body and frame, while someone else merely hangs on a suspension...who is the "fabricator" as that term is being used? I personally believe each and every one of the entities to be builders. Each has a proud history, but I want to know what they are doing (or building) now.

[Jamo]

From Mr. Thomas' reply, I gather the Docker's brand and plant have been purchased, and not AC itself. Previous posts have indicated "AC" was owned by Mr. Price. To, as you say, end this--either confirm or deny or state you don't know.

BTW, Brent has only been talking about the ownership of "AC" itself.

Obviously, you can try to divert the discussion away by talking about folk's perceived motives, but given the statements, it would be nice for the readers here if a clear answer were to be given, without the political BS.

Now, it could very well be that Jim is in the process of getting the "AC" label itself...I'm certainly not privy to that, nor, does it seem, is anybody else--at this time!

What's the difference? Ask BMW and Volkswagen about RR and Bentley.

[computerworks]

Originally posted by Randall Thomas


I think everyone here including you and I want to get to the bottom of this and put it behind us, not dance around the fire throwing marshmallows into it. If brent chooses not to reveal any of his information, then so be it.

/Randall

Wrong.
Frankly, I could care less what's at the bottom of this.

I don't dance around a fire.
...and I don't like marshmallows.

Jim Price has been successful in cutting a deal where he can manufacture AC Autokraft. That's great. He's a swell guy and a smart businessman.

It's not clear that he has outright-purchased AC Cars in its entirety.

Maybe so, maybe not... but he still gets to add some cool cars to his portfolio.... and that's a good-enough bottom for me.

Beyond that...there appears to be an agenda at work here that transcends, shall we say, the love of these cars.

.....

[Randall Thomas]

Jamo, the thread has gotten long enough that the focus and patiences have wore thin (and my poor spelling increased!). So to reset the odometer a bit were all on the same page,

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Scott Smith wrote - 09-08-2003 12:14 PM
"Well, it had to happen. AC is running an ad in this week's Autoweek offering finished 2000 series and 3000 series rollers for $86K. And, they're offering them as "ORIGINALS."

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tainoart wrote - 09-08-2003 01:33 PM
Does anyone know who is the Parent Company for AC?

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Dan Semko wrote - 09-08-2003 01:42 PM
You bet! The parent company owner is Jim Price in South Africa who also owns Hi Tech; who supplies Superformance related products in the USA and the world.

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BRENTFENIMORE wrote - 09-08-2003 04:44 PM
I think you should all know that AC is not owned by James Price or Superformance. This is directly from the actual owners of AC. I think they will be intrested to find out that Mr. Price has claimed ownership of their company. I will get back to this after I get a word from them on what type of response they would like to give.

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Randall Thomas wrote - 09-09-2003 05:26 PM
WORDS from the actual OWNER of AC CARS... Jim Price was called just a few minutes ago, as he is on a business visit to AC in the UK. These words are from Jim Price himself from his hotel room in London, right now...

The facts are that Jim Price has "...acquired from the owners of the AC brand, the sole rights to the intellectual property and tooling for the AC Mk I, Mk II and Mk III rolling chassis built by AC Cars.

Jim has also taken over for his profit or loss, the Frimley factory, the staff and any parts that are required. He also acquired the rights to use the Autocraft brands relative to the Mk I, Mk II and Mk III.

The original AC aluminum bodied rolling chassis will continue to be built in the Frimley factory. whilst Jim's Hi-Tech Automotive plant in South Africa will be building the fiber glass and carbon fiber bodied versions of the AC Mk II and Mk III.

The Frimley AC's will be distributed from the UK until a US distribution network now in the process of being established, is in place. The fiber glass and carbon fiber bodied versions will join their aluminum bodied siblings late in 2003 or in early 2004..." There you have it.

==========================

As it was stated by Jim, he stated he has acquired , the sole rights to the intellectual property and tooling for the AC Mk I, Mk II and Mk III rolling chassis built by AC Cars as well as taken over for his profit or loss, the Frimley factory, the staff and any parts that are required and has acquired the rights to use the Autocraft brands relative to the Mk I, Mk II and Mk III.

Beyond that, my use of the phrase ownership was simply referring to those sole rights acquired as mentioned above by the statement Jim himself made, and those were also what Brent was responding to. But it may appear that the in between comments and additions from others contributing made it difficult to follow who was responding to what. Other than what Jim has provided, I really do into know one way or another as I've stated.

In any case, if one sits back and looks at this, this should not even be the topic for a discussion, just like it woudn't for third parties trying to decide who really owns your car. In that light I will try to get a statement from Jim Price and Alan Lubinsky regarding the exact details of AC that can be acurately and confidently referenced in the future if and when this topic may arrise. Fair nuff?

And, if Brent plans on wriggling out of my visit and diverting from having to absorb at least ten tasty drinks from the local distillery, that still stands. Remember Brent, I am buying no matter what!! ;-)

/Randall

[REAL 1]

Jamo: Your a fabricator too!

[Randall Thomas]

Originally posted by computerworks
I don't dance around a fire.
...and I don't like marshmallows.

Ron, up in the great north in Native American country you can find this common as a Saturday night ritual... the marsmallows are part of the fun, but I suppose being in Wisconsin, cheese curds would be more appropriate. lol.

/Randall

[Jamo]

OK Randy, you "don't know" if "AC" itself is owned by Jim, and that's an honest statement. Thank you.

Evan, no--I'm a fornicator. Bend over.

[SPF604]

The ad in Autoweek does not refer to the export AC cars as being Cobras. It is my understanding that AC is continuing to use their designation of MkII, MkIII, etc... on production cars. You can't get more Original than an AC. Because unless you are talking about one of the original AC Cobras from the 60's, then we all have replicas. AC is the only company that can continue production of what they, and they alone built in the first place. And, AC have built sporadically over the years since the 60's, under many different management groupd and holding companies. Don't forget the Ford/Autokraft years.

If Shelby's suit was a shot across the bow, then Jim Price has dealt a thundering blow to the mid-section. Will be interesting to see what happens next. The war is going to heat up soon when we see what Jim Price delivers next. We'll all have to wait and see.

[mr bruce]

Factory 5 makes a Mark 11,and will soon release a Mark 111, I'm soooooo confused??????

[Great Asp]

Evan wrote (twice):

"Shelby that gave the car its magic"

Like Penn and Teller, or David Copperfield? Cuz I think that stuff is fake. You like facts, is "magic" a fact?....euuuuuu

eric

PS shorten yur posts, they are too lonnnnnnng to read