Kirkham and SAI cars the same?

[Hal Copple]

i have not seen either aluminum car in person, only pictures. But are they the same, excepting the VIN plate, do they use the same suspension, undercarriage, seats, frame, that sort of thing? Does Kirkham just supply the aluminum body to SAI, who then bolts their own frame and stuff under and to it? I had read that Kirkham makes many of their own other parts, in their Polish Factory.

Are they similarily priced and equipped? I have no sinister motives with my inquiry, just got to thinking that a lot of people on CC seem to have one or the other, and they must have their unique reasons. I guess on the Shelby/CAV issue, vs other "rollers" from SA, like my own SPF, there seems to be lots of opinions as to why someone might prefer one over the other, as relating to lineage. So if that seems important to mention so many times, i wonder why it must not have been very important to those who can go aluminum. I have always assumed the cars are pretty much identical.

But then if the cars are actually quite different from one-another, or priced pretty differently, then it would be very easy to understand.

Spending that much more on a Shelby or Kirkham never was a consideration for me, so i never gave it a moment's thought. But there must be very important reasons for many who do buy one or the other.

Like i never seem to spend any time wondering if i should get a Ferrari or Lambo, or which is better, as it is about as likely as me being on the next Space Shuttle.

Some stupid guy at a party down the street just parked his SUV on my new grass out front, how aggrivating to rut my fresh grass seedlings, break three sprinkler heads off. I did turn on my sprinkler to wet him down, he left by driving thru my yard, so i guess i only caused more harm by my revenge.

i should have listened to my wife, she said to have a piece of Pecan Pie, a cup of coffee, and let it go.

[REAL 1]

Hal: This topic has been covered on another thread. Do a search.

In short there are some differences in suspension. Not substantial. SAI also claims it performs some extra finishing touches on the rolling chasis shipped from Kirkham.

In the end, there about as different as a Shelby Cobra was from an AC Cobra. Same car really.

[casaleenie]

Some stupid guy at a party down the street just parked his SUV on my new grass out front, how aggrivating to rut my fresh grass seedlings, break three sprinkler heads off. I did turn on my sprinkler to wet him down, he left by driving thru my yard, so i guess i only caused more harm by my revenge.

i should have listened to my wife, she said to have a piece of Pecan Pie, a cup of coffee, and let it go. [/b][/quote]


Hal,
You're too nice a guy...

I take it you didn't open his windows for him before you turned on the sprinklers??? How did he leave with all the tires flat??

[GeorgiaSnake]

Hal I have had the pleasure to crawl over, under and around TC's Kirkham - It is a piece of art. So nice that I would be afraid to drive it like I do my Unique. I can't imagine the Shelby / Kirkham being any better just more money for the VIN plate.

Either way I will keep what I can afford and enjoy every mile without the agony of a dent or scratch.

Randy

[ToyCollector]

There are differences that have been documented, suspension is one of the largest, minor things like battery trays as well. Also I am sure subtle things such as panels and attachment methods.

TC, worried about dents, not scratches though

[ENTDOC]

Hal,there are differences in the suspension,however Kirkham also offers a true replica suspension,but most prefer the more modern pieces.The big difference is in price,SAI commands a substantial premium over the Kirkham.Is it worth it;I dare not go there as the topic has been truely beaten to death,all I know is that for me it was not. chuck

[Hal Copple]

thanks, all, that is all i wanted to know, no need to go further. Pretty similar cars, i guess. The pictures of them really do look stunning.

we can put this to rest before it gets too much adrenalin and such.

thanks, to those who informed me.

[Years Ago]

Hal,

While I was at Shelby I was resonsible for contracting with the Kirkhams. As you may remember, for one year we took all of their production on an exclusive basis. We did so because we evaluated both cars to be so near to the original we felt comfortable having the Shelby name on the car.

We simple could not sustain an exclusive arrangement beyond the initial year, we could not absorb all of the costs required to totally sustain our operation and theirs also (in terms of taking all of their inventory on a put basis). It was necessary to settle into a comfortable working relationship on a non exclusive basis, not that either party necessarily wanted it that way, but economics just had too much to say about it. We have since worked well together and have both tried to have a gentlemanly relationship one to the other and to each others products. I will not dishonor that trust by getting into an "ours vs. yours is better" discussion and I believe that neither would they. Therefore there will be nothing along those lines initiated from this quarter.

Both cars are great. There are some differencecs resulting from what which each party believes is the best solution for their product and their customers. Parts are at times different, but most often highly interchangeable. It simply boils down to which finished product the individual buyer prefers.

However, Chuck is not right in suggesting there is a substantial premium for the Shelby. On any given day, a buyer with the right negociating skills may find one to be less than the other, or the other way around, but they run in the same ballpark. Shelby does get a premium with the name but Shelby also trys to detail the car in a way that justifies it. It is not, in any event, a substancial premium.

Go hunting brother and pick whichever one you chose. In either case it will be a great car. Whether one is more than the other depends on what the individual buyer works out.

[Jamo]

Hal

I've crawled around the insides and outsides of both, and they are fraternal, rather than identical, twins. One of the most substantial differences (not all that substantial) occured quite recently when SAI went to a more modern electrical system, with relays and fuses that appear to match those of a modern production car. Kirkham's wiring is pretty much the same, appearance-wise, as an original. On the other hand, the Kirkhams have developed highly adjustable and sleek looking arruminum suspension components while still offering up the old style if you wish. SAI offers Girling brakes like the originals, but offers the choice of Brembo (I think), while Kirkham goes with Wilwoods. Kirkham uses full wool carpets, done in snap-in pieces on the floors for cleaning and replacement, like the originals; SAI uses one-piece carpeted floors with what I believe is a wool/synthetic mix (I may be wrong about it being a blend). SAI uses fuel cells, Kirkham uses an SS gas tank. Kirkham's dash braces are fixed; SAI's are removable. SAI uses a push-pull for its lighting switchgear, and a turn signal high beam switch; Kirkham uses a three position light switch and an original style floor mounted high beam switch. Windshield frames come from two different suppliers. Obviously, there are more differences, such as Kirkhams now offering the SS frame, etc., but you get the idea about them being darn close. Casual observers would never notice.

As Wayne has explained, the folks working for either operation are respectful of the fact that knocking one is to knock both.

Definitly a sight to behold...every time I turn on the garage light.

[Turk]

Hal,
One of the major differences between the two cars, quality of Kirkhams maybe more dependent on the builder/finisher since they will sell you one of their cars in different stages of completion.

Whereas Shelby cars are built with more consistent quality controls in place. They do sell them as a 100% completed roller.

Take Pat Buckley's or Ron Richard's (Computerworks) cars for instance. They are bound to be of better and higher quality than anything that left the factory from either Shelby or Kirkham.

If Kirkhams or Shelby did finish the cars to those standards, most of us without those talents, patience, and funds would be driving nothing more than a SPF. Those cars would be unfordable to masses.

To sum it up, A Kirkham finished by Kirkhams to their exacting standards would be as good a car as one assembled by Shelby.
A Kirkham finished like Pat's would be better than anything coming out of Las Vegas.

However, if Shelby would have sent my car to me incomplete I could have easily turned it into something no better than other replicas out there.

TURK

[Jamo]

Oh, you're gonna get reponses to that one, Pasha.

[Turk]

You don't agree?
Hell, Pat has hundreds of hours in polish alone. Ron has hundreds of hours in dismantling the car and going over every inch of it, and bringing it to perfection during the reasssembly.

Let's be fair with both Shelby and Kirkhams. They are both capable of doing the same.

However 300 hours to do the work those two lunatics are doing would add $25,000 to $30,000 more to what are already high end cars.

It is not a put down on any car particulary. Certainly my CSX falls way short of those standards those two employed.

TURK

[Jamo]

Oh assolutely I agree with your point about Pat and Ron. No way do I have the skills to take a chance on messing up a perfectly good piece of metal. That's why I had the Boys from Provo do as much as they legally could in finishing my car. Mine was as factory finished as could be without being a completed car, and I know from seeing Pat's and from making safe assumptions about the fanatic from New York that theirs will be a significant cut above perfection.

Nope, I was just giggling my ass off about the SPF reference. Not that I think your point is wrong, I just want to find a place to duck and cover.

[Turk]

Thanks for clarifying what it was that made you nervous. I went back and read what I had written and couldn't figure out what made you duck for cover.

Neah, SPF reference was nothing more than a reference to a high end car that wouldn't cost $100K.Some of my best friends are SPF owners. Substitute anything you like in it's place. FFR, Excalibur, Classic, EM...what have you.

Hell, you should read what they are saying about US over at SCOF. My comments were not only not malicious and innocent but were tame as compared what they say about us.

Besides who cares what a group (who would let Dan Semko in as a member) thought about us? They couldn't have that high a standards. .....just kidding Dan....

TURK

[Hal Copple]

thanks, wayne, i wasn't actually asking because i need another car, my wife would toss me out with the cat if i brought up the subject. I have seen lots of FFR cars, they are often displayed by the Whidby FFR dealer from NC at the car shows, i am pretty familiar with what they are like under the skin, and i have seen any number of Midstates, too.

Just was curious, it sounds like they are very similar but not identical.

I am happy with my own car, and am not in a position to have more than one "toy". At some point my minivan, which is also available to me, since my wife got her Jag for our 25 th anniversary, will die, it has 144K miles on it. I have been thinking about eventually, when necessary, replacing it with a turbo Mini.

But i have remained enamored of the '69 Dodge Charger R/T, my first new car back then. If it was my daily driver back then, why couldn't a nice, restored one be so now. But the reality of old cars is that they are pretty worn out, no matter how restored they are. My business partner has a '71 S Porsche, and an early 930 turbo. One or the other is virtually always in the shop.

But thanks for the info, i just had some curiosity about the two aluminum cars.

[Dan Semko]

Turk,
You obviously are not in possession of the secret "SCOF decoder ring" so you'll always be confused even with the language barrier. Besides, driving a Porsche won't make you.....hey wait a minute, what are you doing on this cobra site and why are you a moderator? I think we should start impeachment proceedings immediately!

[Bill Wells]

dan, you know the rules. don't show him the secret handshake either...oops, sorry, i should have posted this on the Porsche 930 site. bill

[HIQ]

One is a Kirkham, the other is a Shelby Cobra. Both are works of art anyone would be proud to own and drive.

[speedraser]

Hal, FWIW, I've had my '81 911SC for 9 years and driven it 30,000 miles (not much by your illustrious standards, I know). It has been completely reliable, costing me less than $600 in non-routine maintenance, and very little on the routine stuff (just oil changes, which I do myself, and an approx. $700 service every 15K).

Many more happy miles to you and your SPF.

[Jamo]

Hey Turk

What do you think of that? Wayne gets a nice "thank you" from Hal, and we get...how's FlyinFreddie put it...oh yeah...dick.