Thermostatic oil adapter

ERA Chas · #1 (**permalink**) 10-06-2003, 08:14 PM

My problem concerns Mocal thermostatic Sandwich adapter, pn SP 1 T, used on my 427 SO. The system includes; Earls cooler, AQ lines and fittings, Mobil 1, 10W-30, and Melling HV pump with Canton RR pan. The motor is seasoned and well broken-in. When starting engine cold, the cooler and fittings will become warm to the touch very soon. This indicates that oil is circulating to cooler immediately. The oil t'stat is a 180 deg. design . The SW oil temp gauge shows no reading at this point, [gauge rstarts at 140 ] and has tested as accurate. Warm-up water temps of 160-170 deg. will bring mild oil temps to the cooler. The WATER t'stat is a 190 deg. which works correctly and brings water to 195-215 even on 90+ deg days. It also maintains temp on 40 deg. days . When brand new, I tested the oil t'stat by the old pot-of-water-to-boil-method. The t'stat opened just before boiling which seems correct, and closed as cool-down took place. I can get oil temp on 60 deg ambient days and/or with elevated RPM, which I HATE to do on cold oil. See? Catch 22. I just don't think t'stat is working on the motor as it did in the pot. I bought it from the kind folks at Racers Wholesale but they were only able to provide the phone of Mocal USA in Fla. The tech line could only provide the correct orientation of the in/out line fittings [which I took pains to get correctly], but were no further help. Sincerely appreciate any advice or similar experience to correct this problem. Thanks for your help.

galaxy · #2 (**permalink**) 10-06-2003, 08:34 PM

Those thermostats have a 'controlled leak' built in through out the temp range. It's designed that way to keep a small amount of fluid flowing though the cooler all the time to keep it "primed" so to speak. That way it doesn't just sit empty all the time and then get a big gush of oil when that thing starts to open. Makes for a lot smoother transition, more stability to the temps, and keeps air out. So let's say your oil gets up to 130...Not showing on the gauge (140 and up, right??) but don't you think oil at 130 is warm to the touch? Because of the 'leak', you have 130* oil in the cooler. How's that?

ERA Chas · #3 (**permalink**) 10-07-2003, 05:03 PM

Galaxy
Thanks for the info. Do you work for Mocal? 'Cause you told me lot's more than they did! Really, 130 is not sufficient because oil is most effective at 200 and above, to prevent wear and damage under stress. I just think this device should allow oil temps to rise to or near 180 deg and then maintain that level, even when the cooler is doing it's job.It acted correctly under testing, but I can't figure-out why not in the car. Water t'stats work exactly the way this should, and do it whether idling or redlined. Can any members with oil t'stats only [not combined in sandwich adapters] tell me how well those work at achieving design temps? Thanks again Galaxy.

galaxy · #4 (**permalink**) 10-07-2003, 09:04 PM

So let me make sure I understand correctly...Even with the thermostat your oil is still not even getting up to 180*?? Trust me, the internal leak in the thermostat is not big enough to 'cool' the oil to the point where the oil shouldn't warm up. If this is the case, I'm say that your engine is not producing enough heat under normal conditions to even get the oil warm enough for the thermostat to start to work, which is very, very possible. When you really run it, things can change.

Keep this in mind too. Water temp has absolutely no bearing what so ever on oil temp. Period. (unless you have a water/oil cooler of course)

My truck BTW has a water/oil cooler and my oil runs right around 90-100* above ambient outside air temp all year long. It's very common in winter to never see anything above 145 on the gauge. (yes,I have an oil temp gauge in my truck)

Hope this helps.

REDSC400 · #5 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 02:54 AM

Hi Chas:
I have the same problem with my Cobra. Try this test, Get some duct tape and cut about 2 lengths at 18 " or so and tape up the front of the oil cooler. (The tape comes off easy trust me).

Now run you engine and see if the oil temp climbs higher than "normal" with the face of the oil cooler taped up?

Mine did. So I created a plexiglass plate and velcro'ed it in front of the cooler. You still see the cooler. The plexi keeps out the bugs and in the cool autum weather all is fine. My oil is 180 now vs 140ish.

Possilby some foam insulation on the hoses will add more BTU retention but I have not done that yet.

Best to you Amigo.

Hal Copple · #6 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 04:56 AM

agree with above, i used to run with the cooler in line in the summer, and bypassed in the "winter" , or what we call winter here in upstate SC. I had some extra AN lines made up to do this. Swapped out the lines in a few minutes.

But with my temp sensor in the sump, i find that unless i am pushing it hard, or idling in hot traffic, i can't get m oil temps up very high. I have checked my oil temp sending unit, it seems accurate. My Stroked Windsor is just loafing along at cruise, and with my 9 qt system, it takes a while to warm up anyway. So unless i am putting a lot of combusion heat into the motor, my oil temps really never come up high enough anyway.

Like the writer above suggested, my guess also is that you can't get your oil temps up high enough to use the thermostat's function. My oil temps are very rarely as high as 200 degrees, unless i am on the track.

Now i just leave my oil cooler out of the circuit all the time. So probably it is working fine.

NeedAntiVenom · #7 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 05:35 AM

Chas,

Canton makes a thermo/bypass unit.

http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/...ermostats.html

BTW, I have a cooler installed but not connected. Don't need it - never gets above block temp.

Hope this helps,

Jim

REDSC400 · #8 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 05:39 AM

Jim:
That Canton unit looks beautiful. How does it hook up?
There appear to be 3 orifices for the AN lines.
Do you have any "plumbing" information on that Canton unit?
thanks

galaxy · #9 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 12:06 PM

Unrelated question but, what size line do most of you guys use for your coolers and remote filters...-10 or -12??

TerryK · #10 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 12:25 PM

I'm using the Mocal Thermastate with AN-10 connectors. There is a feature on the Mocal temperature regulator I'm using that will open the valve and stay open permanently if the temperature exceeds a certain value.

Chaplin · #11 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 12:26 PM

Good question Art. Inquiring minds are interested . . .

DonC · #12 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 12:58 PM

Just to add another tangent, what kind of temperatures are you seeing with a 4" core oil cooler or a 6" core cooler?
DonC

wilf leek · #13 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 01:37 PM

Just my 2cs, but when I looked at my own Mocal SP1T sandwich adaptor, I was aghast at the poor attention to detail in terms of the restriction of oil flow within the internal passages in the thing. I spent some time with a die grinder, especially around the inlet/outlet ports, and around the internal opening made when the thermostat "opens". I would recommend a long hard look and think about this item, unless it has changed, and I did have a long talk with Mocal tech about it a couple of years ago, since I was so concerned about the restriction to oil flow it represented.

The thermostat on mine does work as advertised (can feel no temp at all in the oil lines or cooler until the oil is right up to temperature). You could try a replacement "waxstat" - accessible when you unscrew the black hex headed plug on the side of the thing, and available from Mocal as I understand. Could be yours is "tired"??

And I used dash 12 lines to and from the oil cooler/accusump. Jolly expensive, all those -12 fittings, and as for the -12 non-return flapvalve!

HTH

ERA Chas · #14 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 05:19 PM

I'm very pleased and appreciate all the response and input to my problem. Galaxy, I've been interested in water/oil cooling/heating and have seen illustrations of GM unit used on certain 'Vettes which are part of the filter boss. Red, been covering my cooler for 10 seasons with no discernable result, which led me to this t'stat. I know it works for you and others, but not my voodoo motor. Hal, your running experiences are exactly the same as mine; 210+ with combustion heat or idling in traffic on warm days, and track use. Not much any other times. I've been considering your " bypass cooler " lines for long time now; just thought t'stat would work as designed. Jim, thanks for research on Canton site. The piece is beautiful and pricey. Just the stuff I stupidly crave. We ERA guys are used to that ahem, mentality. Also, Galaxy, I use -10, as most guys do but originals were -12's. Wilf; a man after my own heart! When I got my Mocal, I Dremelled the CRAP out of that lousy casting [to use some American vernacular], 'cause it was a mess! But your advice about the "waxstat" may truly be the heart of my problem. I never was told that was replacable and I'm going to try to get one. I guess you have to be BRITISH to get the lowdown from Mocal! Also, roger about the -12 costs. Thanks to one and all . Lets stay in touch.

Hal Copple · #15 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 07:49 PM

chas, for something else to do, i re-did all my oil lines in AN 12, even the cooler, there is a direct fit from Setrab that fits all the holes perfectly , with AN 12 O-ring inlets. All my connections are made to minimize oil flow resistance, i run a huge Wix racing oil filter on an Ernie Elliot NASCAR filter remote mount, it actually came off one of the Dodge Evernham cars. I have so much oil flow that (with an adjustable high-volume Melling pump) i have decided to stay with 10-40 year around, don't need any oil cooling. I run a custom modified Canton oil filter block adaptor, my oil return goes straight into the block via a threaded hole bored in the big brass bolt/nut that holds the thing to the block, the old oil inlet is where my Accusump now goes.

I did have the Goodrich hose technician do one hose for me, with special ends, drove up and had him make it right up for me, they are in the NC NASCAR area just north of Charlotte.

An oil thermostat for me would only give some additional resistance, and have not found this summer i needed any cooling of my oil. I am though very careful about using much RPM or power until i have it somewhat warmed up. I have about 63-65K miles on my stroked Windsor thus far. Runs the same oil pressure it did when i drove it home. I run Redline oil.

By the way, i use one of those sump suckers (mine from Griot's Garage) to get my oil out, it gets it all out, don't risk an oil plug drain bolt problem, and since my oil filter is up high on the driver's side, i can put on a new filter without much bending over, or even having to raise the car. I suck out all my car' oil for changes.

NeedAntiVenom · #16 (**permalink**) 10-09-2003, 07:34 AM

Art,

I can't help you with hookup info. I was concerned about excessively low oil temps with a cooler installed, and found it while looking for oil thermostats. My engine builder said I would not need a cooler for street, so I had the oil cooler installed but not connected. Should I have oil temp problems in the middle of summer I'll plumb the oil cooler and install the thermostat.

BTW, I would hope the cooler is either a proportional bypass or has some sort of bleed through so that the motor doesn't get a slug of cold oil when it opens.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Jim

ERA Chas · #17 (**permalink**) 10-21-2003, 06:26 PM

Wilf,
An update since your last advice; I contacted "B.A.T." the American distributor for Mocal and was told the "Waxstat" you refer to is not a replaceable part. I was told to remove and inspect the t'stat, and examine if the plunger is visible when cold. [it should not be] If it is, then the portion you refer to is defective and that they would replace my whole t'stat. I'll keep you advised.
Thanks again,