Cobra Chassis Race Challenge

[Richard Hudgins]

OK folks, Here it is. Everybody keeps talking about what is the “BEST” handling Cobra.

I propose the following:

All manufacturers (That are willing) provide a car to the following specifications:

1. A bone stock (as advertised on their website or in their literature) standard road edition Cobra. No changes to anything. This means spring rates, dampers, anti-roll bars, wheels, ride height, etc. etc. In other words, JUST WHAT YOU GET FOR YOUR MONEY AS A NORMAL CUSTOMER.. NOTHING ELSE!!!!!!!!

2. Engine. 351 Ford crate engine. All carburetors the same. (Jetting free) Must run standard distributor. 6500 rpm chip.

3. Gearbox. Tremec TKO with .8 overdrive. Bellhousing and clutch free.

4. Rear axle ratio. 3.73 (For folks that do not have this ratio available, the ratio must be within 5% of the above) or 3.55 gear if this is the best for matching ratios.

5. Tires. Hoosier DOT radials. (This because of the wide performance variation in road tires.)

6. Suspension settings must be stock as published in manufactures literature. (NO CHANGES ALLOWED TO CAMBER, CASTOR, ETC.)

7. The venue should be the October COCOA event at Willow springs next October, (This give everyone plenty of time) and all manufacturers already have cars or dealers on the west coast.

8. The driver must not be associated with any manufacturer. I recommend that Mike (MistressMotorsports) would be a good choice. (He is a former SPF owner. But now runs a 240Z in vintage. I think that he would be pretty consistent in all of the various chassis.

9. Each car would be driven for 5 laps to get the driver used to the characteristics of each car. After the five laps, the car would come into the pits and tire pressures set hot to equalize.

10, Then 10 laps run to establish best time.

Then we see where they all stand.

We are talking about road spec cars. NOT RACE SPEC!!!! Absolutely no modifications from stock road spec allowed.!!!!!!

OK BOYS and GIRLS, step up to the plate.

[Wild Thing]

This sure sounds like fun!

Maybe this should be combined with some kind of cobra meeting, like the fling or else - could be one great party!

[STG]

The Cobra Owners Club of America rents the big track at Willow Springs twice a year.

By the way, I saw Lynn Park there on Saturday and he's doing fine after his surgery.

(Richard, I like the new look of the JBL web site!)

[mr bruce]

Excellent idea! Doubt you'll get many takers. Might I suggest the following: High speed slolom, 60mph thu the cones ,to see how these cars handle in the real world . 60 to 0 brake test. 50 mile street drive, weeds out all the trailor cars. Do I get points if I drive my Daytona in from PA?

[Gordon Levy]

Richard, That's a pretty interesting challenge. Would you allow one of my Levy Racing FFR's with some of my available off-the-shelf parts we manufacture?
The other thing is, Mike is a very good driver but I prefer to drive myself.
If we can get some of the peticulars nailed down, I will build a car for it.

[Excaliber]

Heres a link to the thread that "started this fire".

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/t46620-20&pagenumber=1

To me the question boiled down to the best "show room stock" Cobra. Certainly need to pick the driver(s) carefully, I am not worthy!

I like the 50 mile road trip idea, helps keep the competition "real".

Ernie

EDIT: Several good points made about who would "drive" for the test. I've driven in competition for many years and the most important thing I've found is the NEED for "consistency". I don't have it, I admire those that do! We need a driver who is above all things, "consistent". Put ME out there and I WILL spin the car trying to find the "edge" of the envelope,

[Richard Hudgins]

Originally posted by Gordon Levy


Richard, That's a pretty interesting challenge. Would you allow one of my Levy Racing FFR's with some of my available off-the-shelf parts we manufacture?
The other thing is, Mike is a very good driver but I prefer to drive myself.
If we can get some of the peticulars nailed down, I will build a car for it.

Gordon,

The point here is "STANDARD" "STOCK" ETC.

We all know that you put together a great piece. But if you use "available off-the-shelf" bits that you manufacture, then it is no longer a "STOCK" FFR. JBL has some off the shelf bits as well that would increase track performance significantly.

If any changes are made to the "STANDARD CHASSIS AS ADVERTISED AND SOLD" then the whole thing becomes an exercise in chassis tuning and special bits. In other words "a real can of worms" and not a true comparison of “STOCK” automobiles.

Also, my point in having one qualified driver who is not associated with any manufacturer is to keep out "RINGERS".

You most certainly qualify as a "RINGER".

Maybe, both you and Mike should drive all of the cars. But then it would become a competition between drivers and would muddy up the results.

[coyled]

Richard, can I run my hi tech? It has a 351 (.030 over), stone age bias ply's if thats ok instead of those sticky radials. Willow is ok with me allthough road america is more centrally located. Seriously, how could this ever work with supposed stock vehicles? None of these cobras have a standard stock spec. Even factory cars from Detroit are tinkerd with before the road test. What if we did it for the most part in the way that these cobras are purchased. A guy buys a cobra, starts open tracking, makes modifications and improves as a driver. That would allow guys like me in a hi-tech, chuck in his jbl or nelson in his ffr to compete in their own cobra. Anybody associated with a manufacturer or that has extensive race experience can not drive or prepare a factory car to drive. Guys like richard could not drive, Gordon couldn't drive, the otloffs(sp) couldn't drive, the backdraft owners could not drive. Guys that keep their cobra pretty stock tend not to open track them anyway. The best chassis should come shining through at the limit. My guess is that it would still be a jbl car. Willow would be a cool venue as it was the original test track for shelby. Scott

[Richard Hudgins]

Originally posted by Excaliber


Heres a link to the thread that "started this fire".

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/t46620-20&pagenumber=1

To me the question boiled down to the best "show room stock" Cobra. Certainly need to pick the driver(s) carefully, I am not worthy!

I like the 50 mile road trip idea, helps keep the competition "real".

Ernie

Ernie,

The fifty mile road trip is fine with me. I recommend that all of the cars be driven from the intersection of I15 and SR133 to the track. This is more than 50 miles, but is a true road that Cobra folks would have fun driving on and has all of the "REAL" world situations that one would encounter in touring about in a Cobra.

You know, hills, turns, stop and go bits, rough sections that a race prepped chassis would not like, freeway, etc.

Road tires should be used for this segment. The DOT Hoosiers to be put on at the track.

[MysteryTrain]

The question that ignited this thing was from a guy (similar to myself) who is in the process of narrowing his choices of the many high quality Cobra replicas on the market. He was refering to a car that he could buy and race without much tinkering. Richard's challenge is all about Cobra builders putting their product head to head, as is, no mods. This is going to draw a ton of interest from guys who want to run something tweaked. I think Richard's challenge is pretty clear. Cobra builders like FFR, BDR, JBL, etc., get to run bone stock, as advertised, with the same motor, because this is about chassis not engine output, not driver expertise. I agree with Richard that this could get muddy otherwise.

MT

[Specialk]

That rules out every Shelby product. They are not offered with a 351 option! However, the spec racers are!

[Excaliber]

Bummer!!! I'd sure like to see a Shelby and Kirkham run! There must be a way???

Ernie

[Richard Hudgins]

Originally posted by coyled


Richard, can I run my hi tech? It has a 351 (.030 over),

Scott,

351 (.030) over. Indeed!!!

Once again, this is not meant to be a tuning exercise.

But a comparison of STANDARD cars. AS ADVERTISED.

I understand your points. They are well taken, but my point is that people look at things like the RUN & GUN results and make comparisons of the cars offered by various manufacturers as if these are the same vehicles they buy as standard issue.

In other words NO RINGERS OR SPECIAL BITS OR 600 HP MOTORS.

Chucks JBL is actually just like the specification that I have proposed. It is absolutely bone stock. Crate 351, etc. (The gearbox is not the TKO, it is a standard t-5 with the .65 5th gear.3.55 rear ratio.) There are NO modifications to his car from the standard as delivered JBL. Plus his car has 35k on it and is driven on the street all of the time. (He even delivers parts to customers in it.)

Maybe you should drive the cars. You have quite a bit of experience now and you do not claim to be a race driver. But rather you are an enthusiast driver just like 99.9% of the rest of the Cobra folks.

I think that you would give a fair comparison of the various cars and would probably have a bit of fun as well.

[Richard Hudgins]

Originally posted by Specialk


That rules out every Shelby product. They are not offered with a 351 option! However, the spec racers are!

Kris,

Are you saying that none of your customers ever put in a 351.

That one would not fit? That you guys do not have headers? ETC.

I would think that the mounts and headers from the spec race car would work.

[coyled]

I would be glad to do it but I don't have any experience in other cars or cobra's other than my own. I do think that an average driver like me would be good in the sense that, right from the manufacturer, which cobra would be the quickest at willow springs for an average driver. A really good driver could get more out of a very difficult to drive cobra. Scott

[grumpy]

Richard,
My son, well guess that rules him out, since he's the son of a manufacturer, say's it nails his car to a tee as far as that part of the rules go.
We will be there if you can get that one item figured out. In other words I could hire a full time SCCA Class Champion and that would be legal, but by association a son, or any family member, works a normal job, just autocross and first time SCCA this spring, would be out by association.
HMMM, work on the details of the rules and I'm sure you will have a full field.
Or am I reading it that the drivers will be furnished by JBL/Commitee, and they will do all the driving?
grumpy

ps; like the sound of it, we will be there with car and spares, if things go together. The one driver (John Morton) idea, sounds great. Keep us informed. This could get to be a hoot whens all said and done.

[Highland Daytona Racing]

Good stuff Richard!

This is one kick A%@ idea that I can get on board with! Count HDR in.

One question; Does this count out Coupes? Not that it matters much, both my cars share the same chassis, just wondering.

Also, I disagree with the driver. I believe the driver should have more back ground in pro testing, teaching and of course racing, as this would give each car a more controled analysis through more exacting repeatability by the driver. And of course as you said, no affiliations.

I have a client that has come to know one of Bonderaunts top drivers, first name Jeff, I cant remember the last. I believe this guy also does testing for some major Japanees auto makers, along with driving some of their cars in their TV commercials. If we do this, and if everyone thinks he's a good choice for driver, I can sure try and contact him.

Rick Ellis

[Richard Hudgins]

Grumpy,

It is my thinking that there would be only one driver for the track driving part.

I really do not care who that driver is as long as they are not a factory (read COBRA manufacturer) associated driver.

It would be a good idea that the driver has some reasonable level of experience, maybe a pro driver like John Morton. He has a bunch of Cobra experience and would certainly be able to wring out the best in each car.

Rick,

I think that there should be a separate Coupe division. Aero means a bunch. There are quite a few coupe manufacturers now and I think that a head to head run of them would be cool as well. Same rules as for the roadsters.

Once again, I do not care who the driver is, as long as they are not associated with any manufacturer.

I think that the COCOA event at Willow would be a very good place for this. This event could be run on Friday during the test day and would be a great lead in to the weekend. (The Vegas thing that they do might work as well. But I do not know if the track is available on Friday prior to the event.)

I hope that all the manufacturers will step up to the plate.

It would great fun and one could probably get the magazines and maybe even speedvision(Speed TV)/Tommy Kendal to cover the event. After all, this would be just as popular as the Porsche owners club thing that they broadcast every year. (Actually more so in my opinion.)

[Bart Carter]

Although the idea sounds great, I don't see it happening. What is a "stock" FFR for instance. No one builds a "stock" car. Only the roller chassis manufacturers.

And then you have the cost to consider. Again, using FFR, the initial cost is low for the "stock" donor concept. If a FFR guy is going to a 351, he is doing other things, it's not "stock". This makes the FFR comparable to the more expensive rollers.

This is not a real comparison. For that you would have to compare a $60,000 JBL to a $60,000 Levy Racing FFR to a $60,000 Shelby, etc. And do we count labor? We would have to to give the roller chassis manufacturers equal footing.

Let me know what cost range(s) you would like to compare. For instance a Levy Racing FFR could be built to any pre-determined price point.

You get what you pay for and this would be a great comparison in that respect. Have different cost groups. Then anyone can bring a car.

[Excaliber]

Hmmmm......I don't know about the "cost" thing. I'd like to see the event run by similiar "Cobras" regardless of "cost" of the car. AS LONG AS IT'S REPRESENTS a bascially "stock" configuration as offered by the manufacturer.

My thinking for a "typical" FFR in that regard would be:
Solid axle, 351 "crate type engine", all standard amenities, Mustang II type suspension in front. You know, something like a "typical" guy might build on a "budget". FFR's stongest point IS the "budget" approach after all.

A Shelby (SAI alloy, or CAV Glass model, either one) with original style suspension etc. would be fine! A "spec racer" would NOT!

Lets get a "Hunter" in the mix! Would the longer wheel base cars be "acceptable"?

How about a Arntz/Butler while were at it? MGB suspension with a 351 though!

OR, should it be limited to EXISTING Cobra manufacturers that ARE doing business right now?

Who's bringing the Classic Roadster?

Ernie

BDR is pretty impressive! By golly, we might have us a race!