Cobra Chassis Race Challenge

[Excaliber]

Claimer Division!!! That's what I used to run in the 60's. ANY other driver could buy your car at a fixed price at the end of the race. Sure kept the "high dollar" boys nervous! In this case the price might be ADVERTISED price for a COMMON model that represents the brand. NOT that "one of" or "special order" limited edition stuff!

Is the FFR IRS option "common" to the car in general? Or, more like few and far between?

DV offers an IRS option on the Classic Roadster, but that it not "typical" of C.R.'s.

Never the less, I wouldn't be totally opposed to it IF it was offered at a REASONABLE price and they were in fact a REASONABLE number of sales associated with that option!

The important thing is to keep it "real"! NO ringers, no "one of a kinds". Modern technolgy MORE than welcome!

BDR is a great example of that AND it's BMW suspension is "common" to that marque!

Would love to see the "new stuff" run against the "old stuff"! But leave the Vettes and the "one of kinds" at home!

Ernie

[Richard Hudgins]

Boudy,

I agree with the driver thing. You need one good driver to drive all of the cars. Like I said John Morton, MistressMotorsports Mike, etc. etc. Just no factory affiliated drivers. (Note: a good race driver can put down laps within the same second all day long, if they cannot, they are not race drivers.)

Also, One entry per manufacturer. If the car breaks, well that’s the way it is. That is the reason I picked a low HP engine and a 6500 rpm rev limiter.

Each manufacturer should bring a STOCK/STANDARD ISSUE ROAD EDITION vehicle in all respects. If they offer an IRS, bring it. If not bring what you got.

I also agree with the price bit, a JBL ready for engine and gearbox is 42k. A Superformance is about 40k. The BDR is less than 30k. A FFR with IRS and new parts built to this level (less engine and gearbox) is probably 25>27k. The new Shelby is what 42k? (I know that Kris says no SB, but I would bet that could be worked out.) A Kirkham? I do not know the price, but I bet they could put a SB in one in a hot second. The point is not price, it’s all about how the chassis performs on a typical road course. (and of course on the drive to the track.)

Now I know the next thing is going to be the BB folks griping about being left out. I picked the engine because they are cheap and available and equal in power. If someone can provide a 427 for about the same price, with the same reliability OK. We can make them 427 powered cars. (This lets in Shelby, Kirkham etc.)

Mr. Bruce,

I disagree with the track specific thing. I stated that the cars suspension settings must be as specified for street use. NO changes to castor, camber, spring rates, Dampers, etc. In other words, run what you sell. EXACTLY. No race cars.

I know everyone thinks that the JBL is a race car. Well, it is not. For it to be a race car, you need to change springs, dampers, suspension settings, etc. The standard JBL road settings are .5 degree neg. camber front, .25 neg. camber rear, .0625 toe front, .03125 toe rear and front castor 3 degrees front.

The main reason for Willow is they have a COBRA event there in October and this event could be run of Friday prior to the normal event. I really do not care where you run the event. If I wished to pick tracks that favored the JBL, they would be rough surface tracks such as Lime Rock or Hallet in OK. Willow is also a very smooth track, therefore a beam axle car would fair well. Mid-Ohio would be fine as well, but the rent is pretty high. The Glen suits me as well.

But the Magazine folks are out here, as well as every manufacturer has representation, and we know what the weather will be at Willow. (Rain will never be an issue)

The point is to take out all of the variables such as engines, gearbox, trick suspension bits not on the standard car etc. etc.

In other words, NO RINGERS. Just the standard everyday car that the various manufacturers sell to the public. You know, the one that is in all of the ads for a given price.

Ernie,

If someone wished to purchase the JBL at the end of the event. It would be sold at the same price as any other JBL of like spec.

[valpodoc]

Easy...manufacturers showcase their cars by displaying a "build sheet" and cost. Three or four drivers considered a spectrum of the cobra community drive each car with the times listed. Ideally, tracks at different venues could be used so that exposure would be optimized. Come what may the winner will sell the most cars.
Loser buys the beer....(for all)
Roland

[jmarsey]

I will be there with my not so street spec bossjbl. This could be a pretty good turn out for jbl'rs. Richard & Dave should build a stocker for the event, Chuck Miller's beautiful rebodied stocker, Andy's car should be sorted out by then, David Biele is building a beautiful black street car with too much hp, and if I don't try any more off road driving and keep repairs to a minimum, I should make the event easy. Am I leaving anyone out? I think there would be a bunch of guys from Nor Cal that would love to come down for something like this. Come on, we've got a whole year to get it together.

I was not aware of the Cobra event at Willow in October. I'll be coming down for that event next year too. Can't wait.

[Excaliber]

The two words "Butcher" and "Stock" don't even belong in the same sentence!

Ernie

[MysteryTrain]

As far as price goes, run what you sell. FFR offers an IRS package, so run one. The point we are attempting to prove is this:

"Which is the best handling car?" This will show the purchasing consumers what they are paying for. If a $30,000 car runs within a second or two of a $60,000 car, do you consider your car a looser in the event? I hardly think so, let the consumer base his purchasing desicion on real data.

This is exactly what is appealing to me about this challenge. I may or not have the resources to acquire a JBL, Kirkham, or Shelby, but if a car in my price range (SPF, BDR, FFR) is breathing down the neck of one of these thoroughbreds, it could go a long, long way towards winning me as a customer. At the very least, it is about respect for the product. There certainly ain't no shame in finishing behind a more expensive product. If anything, JBL has more to lose by participating in such a challenge filled with less expensive products. Most expect them to easily win. All the more impressive that this salvo comes from the JBL camp!

I say don't include price in the comparision. Just put the price of each product right on the meatball as it's racing #. This is priceless marketing, and BTW, it is extrordinary fun, too! Keep it up guys!

MT

[Wild Thing]

A possible option could be every company brings their own driver. I too think the price should not be an issue; the comparison between hi and low priced cars makes it interresting. Any ideas about the time schedule? Someone mentioned october 04 - I'm coming! gotta see this!!

[G.R.]

MT's challenge sounds good. Any manufacturers car "as advertised" with his criteria--sort of like you, me, and anyone else would see advertised in any magazine, or website and be tempted to buy--Identical engines and trans, let those that offer IRS have them, other than that no changes--pretty simple.
I 'd only suggest using 2 drivers , each putting every car through the gauntlet, one guy may have an off day, one may be on. And preferably drivers not particularly familiar with the venue or cobra replicas for that matter but experienced in handling high performance cars.

Would be interesting to see the results between the different makes compared with the "advertised" hoopla and owner loyalty that so often "muddy" the waters so to speak

[750hp]

Originally posted by Wild Thing


A possible option could be every company brings their own driver.

Numerous times throughout this thread, it has been mentioned that by each company bringing a hired gun, a large discrepancy could be attributed to the driver. By doing exactly what Richard JBL says, and using a non-affiliated driver to drive all of the cars, the driving skill remains constant and the cars themselves can be compared.

What could possibly be gained by each company bringing their own driver?

[750hp]

..... Richard - I've just gone back over your website, and I'm wondering how well suited you feel your "standard" braking system is for sustained roadrace use? Did you choose the 12.19" rotors to keep to a price, or are you confident that the 12.19"s are large enough to dissipate the heat effectively. Further to that, have you ever found the D compund Wilwood pads to be not up to the task, or have they also proven more than adequate?

Please don't read anything into this other than simple curiosity. I just assumed that you'd have 13" rotors on your cars, and the fact that you haven't used them leads me to wonder if they are ever required on a Cobra.

Thanks for keeping everyone on their toes

[STG]

MysteryTrain,

I believe RH quoted a JBL roller (complete less drive train) at $42,000. Isn't this what the CSX400SA is selling for (post introductory price)? Didn't I read a thread here about SPF raising pricesto or near this level?

[Buzz]

What a fantastic idea! However, if the test as stated is to determine the best chassis "as sold by the manufacturer" independent of price, why handicap the Shelby and Kirkham cars with an engine they are not designed for? The mods required to fit the 351 crate motor would make the cars custom and not representative of the marque. Let them all run as designed with stock versions of their typical powertrains and throw in a slalom test as well as a skid pad and braking test for a real world evaluation of each brand. Cars like SPF that are typically sold with both BB and SB setups can enter both. Can a 351 powered __________ car outrun a big block___________car? Can it out handle or out brake it? What about subjective issues like stability, steering feel and ride? These are the questions that will be answered. If the interest in this keeps building, It's almost certain that Car & Driver or one of the other big publications might want to run the test and story. The question is - how many manufacturers will step up to the plate?

[Excaliber]

I'm thinking this thread needs a "sticky" and should be placed in a particular area for future reference?

Ernie

[coyled]

Buzz, to fit a 351 in the shelby or kirkam cobra is simple. Change the motor mounts and it will bolt in. The only custom piece would be the headers. The headers off of a spec racer would work. Richard, what about tire sizes? I would think a standard size would be more fair. If one manufacturer comes with 17 inch by 10 inch rims and can thus run a larger tire then say the shelby cobra with 15 by 7.5 and 15 by 9.5? Could be a big tire advantage. I would think that John Morton might be the best choice for drivers. He certainly knows the track and has driven many cobras there. If you wanted a non cobra pro driver, I know some one I could ask to do it. He has no affiliation with cobra's. . Scott

[800hp]

richard,
renegade roadsters will attend in full force .it sounds like an event that will let all the cars speek for themselves in a even match . if you need help with anything dont hesetate (sp) too call .


thanks jim riddell

renegade roadster
(209)545-4653

[Excaliber]

Renegade? Tell us more about yourself and you cars. Lets see how the competition is shapeing up!

As to wheel rim size I'm thinking: Run what a "typical" build would run. If that's 15" rim and 9" width, thats what it is!

Ernie

[rdorman]

Willows Well at least I will finally have a reason to come to the left coast!

Since this is a chassis shoot out I totally beleive in:
- fixed drive train, crate motor, tranny and rear end gear
- fixed tire and compound
- a test driver (or two that drive them all)
- as 'advertised' street car setup with no options (except for safety of course)

If you can get a number of manufacturers to step up to the plate, this would be one he!! of a event.

If you do it, they will come. 'They' being the media.

How about for fun, if the manufacturers want, they could bring another car that is not part of the competition. A high dollar, no limits car just to show how far you can take their cars.

I know a former F1 driver that lives in the states that I am sure would be up for this.

Rick

[Richard Hudgins]

Originally posted by 750hp


..... Richard - I've just gone back over your website, and I'm wondering how well suited you feel your "standard" braking system is for sustained roadrace use? Did you choose the 12.19" rotors to keep to a price, or are you confident that the 12.19"s are large enough to dissipate the heat effectively. Further to that, have you ever found the D compund Wilwood pads to be not up to the task, or have they also proven more than adequate?


Thanks for keeping everyone on their toes

Craig,

The 12.19 rotors have plenty of mass for the requirement. The 13 inch rotors would give you a bit more moment arm and would therefore increase base torque at the rotor. However, the increase is not large enough to justify them as an option.

Customers can certainly ask for this but I would recommend the Brembo option with 360mm rotors instead. (Note: WAY EXPENSIVE, JBL does not even quote the price.)

Actually, the "D" pads are a option. The "A" pads are standard. The torque curves and CF are much better on the "A" pads. The "D" units are for the folks who do not like the heavy residue produced by the "A" units. (WAXERS)

PS: I fixed the link to the parts spread sheet on the site. The one that came up was two years old. (This proves that engineers are not good webmasters.)

[Richard Hudgins]

Originally posted by coyled


Richard, what about tire sizes? I would think a standard size would be more fair. If one manufacturer comes with 17 inch by 10 inch rims and can thus run a larger tire then say the shelby cobra with 15 by 7.5 and 15 by 9.5? Could be a big tire advantage.

Scott,

I guess that the wheel/tire size thing could be a issue.

But, the JBL only comes one way. 10X17 front and 12X17 rear. 275/40/ZR17 front tires and 335/35/ZR17 rear tires. The wheels are specific to the car. The chassis was designed around this configuration, any changes will screw up the car.

I would assume that every manufacturer has designed their chassis around a specific tire and wheel size to maximize performance. (Or to reach a given price point.)

However, the point is to run what you build as a standard. If what you produce as a standard car has 7's and 9's by 15's, "you gotta run em."

After all, that is what the manufacturers advertise, build, and base their pricing on, isn't it?


PS: Did you go to Willow last weekend. If so, how was the new chassis setup and gearbox?

[Nuke427]

Were there any JBL's at the Run and Gun this year? If there were, did they run the track?