Cobra Chassis Race Challenge

[decooney]

What is the wet weight of a standard equipped JBL?

[Richard Hudgins]

Originally posted by Nuke427


Were there any JBL's at the Run and Gun this year? If there were, did they run the track?

Nuke,

To my knowledge there were no JBL's at the R&G.

JBL as a manufacturer does not participate in any of these events whatsoever. In JBL’s opinion they are for JBL owners to attend and have fun while doing so.

JBL’s philosophy is quite simple. If JBL were to attend these events, they would have to treat these events as a marketing venue just like the rest of the manufacturers. Therefore, one would have to bring out all the special bits, crazy engines, and serious drivers to make sure of a great showing. It would quite easy with the bits in the JBL parts bin to provide a car that cost 125k and would be just about as quick as a current trans-am car.

But this is not what JBL states as a normal car that it sells to the public.

JBL will rest on the performance of its customers at events. They are the folks who matter.

I personally would rather spend 100 hours getting a customer car setup correctly and coaching them through driving techniques, then spend a minute producing a works car in order to sell another car.

Please understand something, JBL does not advertise, JBL does not actively market the car, and JBL does not build more than 15 cars a year. JBL is not after more sales.

JBL produces a design that it feels is gratifying for the owner and fulfils the needs of a broad range of users.

That’s all. No better than, but no worse than the rest.

[Richard Hudgins]

Originally posted by decooney


What is the wet weight of a standard equipped JBL?

Decooney,

2350>2550. It just depends on how much stuff you hang on the car.

You know, fire systems, carpet liner, electric ass wipers, etc.

[Boudy]

Well said Richard. Kinda mushy but I still like it.

Boudy

[MysteryTrain]

STG - you are correct. As advertised, "bone stock" I would also consider JBL to be mid-range (though just slightly out of my personal budget). When I posted my comments about high end cars, I had just finished looking over an old post of a JBL owner who's rig was in the 80-90 grand range. After reading your post, I went back & realized he'd put quite a few extras into it. This makes this event all the more interesting for me.

Again, relative price (and value) can be judged by the spectators and prospective buyers.

Richard - kudos to you. I say run the event precisely as you lined out from the beginning.

P.S. STG, I'm a huge fan of your gallery. Best pics on the web for Cobra freaks.

MT

[STG]

MysteryTrain,

Thanks for the complement!

The neat thing about a bone stock JBL is that a the REAL goodies are included. Where else can you get cockpit adjustable sway bars, CNC machined suspension components, inboard front suspension, etc.?

Richard,

Do the electric ass wipers run up the cost to the $80-90K range?

Give me a crate engine and driving lessons.

[750hp]

Originally posted by 800hp

I sense a horsepower challenge coming, too

What's under the hood of your car to justify your username?

[coyled]

Richard, I could not make willow. I do think the tire size should be the same for all cobra's. There is no bigger advantage than a larger footprint or driver. I agree on the same hoosier tire. None of these cobra's come standard with a slick or dot tire so going to the hoosiers is an uptick. Because of the clear advantage of tire size alone, and it is something that most guys upgrade right away anyways if they road race, I think it should be allowed. Its not a chassis change. Otherwise, you will have guys saying that the reason the xyz cobra is faster is tires. With equal tires,just like equal motors, trans, driver, the only variable is chassis. Scott

[Bruce Robles]

I just went to the JBL site to see if it is the same car I thought it was, and it is. What is the big deal if this "Ringer" of a car out handles and is faster then a 50 year old and 30 year old chassis designs of orginal 289 and 427 Cobras, and all of other manufactures who built cars as replicas out of donner production cars? It damn well should be.
The JBL is a race car period. Its a great feat of engineering and should easily be the best in all quarters. The statement " the tire size maybe an issue" is absolutly absurd, it is absolutly an issue. It has all the goodies that a modern day race cars have with tube chassis, rocker arm suspension, adjustable sway bars front and rear, real 4 piston and vented brakes, the works.
It is not designed in the true spirit of a Cobra or the replica industry. It is what it is, in a class of it's own. I'm not surprised at the times it is said to have lapped Willow Springs after seeing it. Nice car but not fair in the spirit of what this competition about. It would be like running a production Mustang, Jag, or Corvette against a Trans-Am car.
Any race driver would be able to look and say who the winner would be just by comparing JBL's car to the rest. Now mind you, I don't know if there are anymore "modifieds" out there to the degree of the JBL, that would show up.
You might have to run a pure stock and a modified production stock type deal now. And address stock street suspension/donner car type's from purpose built motorsports suspension, tire size etc.
And maybe front and rear weight distribution rather than engine size should be considered. If most have small blocks then run them. But I agree with Buzz too, that Shelby's should not have to build a special 351 car. After all thc cars you all are trying to mimic are thiers. An I'd bet if the availabilty of 427 FE engines was the same as 351's, you would be running them if you wanted some sort off originality.
Again, I thought the deal was best handling car not the fastest car.

[Richard Hudgins]

Originally posted by STG


Richard,

Do the electric ass wipers run up the cost to the $80-90K range?

STG,

As the electric ass wipers are a "track only" option, they cannot be used in this event.

(Please note: They are very expensive as they are part of our optional data logging and telemetry equipment. They can be activated manually by the race engineer if certain "G" loadings are exceeded. Or the system can be programmed to activate them automatically by biosensor readings of galvanic changes or elevated gas levels.) Please call for details on this option.

Scott,

I do agree about the wheel size problem. But I do not know what to do about it. I picked the Hoosier tires as a way to equalize tires by type. Street tires are all over the place as far as traction etc.

Maybe the thing to do is to run the cars on their standard street wheels and tires for 5-10 laps. Then change to whatever rims are standard options offered by the manufacturers. These will be fitted with Hoosier DOT tires (same compounds on all cars) and run another 5-10 laps.

Either way is OK with me.

[Excaliber]

The "Big Deal" is that the JBL is NOT the only "modern" chassis/suspension Cobra out there.

BDR (Back Draft Racing) uses BMW IRS suspension. The challenge is a direct result of a discussion concerning THAT car vs JBL in regards to handling. It then expanded to include other cars as well.

The Hunter Cobra is based on Corvette suspension, hardly 30 years old! There are other examples of "modern" Cobras being offered with modern suspension, brakes, tires etc.

To me it is not about who "wins", it is about how well the cars compare to each other. All though one might ASSUME the JBL will be the "winner" it's "bigger than that" now!

I want to know, how WILL a CSX car in original trim with original WHEELS do against the mighty JBL? How WILL an FFR with IRS and MANUFACTURERS wheels do against such a "Goliath"?

12" wide by 17" wheel IS what JBL offers as "standard" equipement. I say the other cars run EXCATLY what they advertise and sell. This aint about a "race", it's a celebration of show room STOCK performance!

I think the "old" CSX Cobra is STILL a worthy opponent after all these years! If it runs with a 427 their would be a huge question about how well the CHASSIS and SUSPENSION was working! THe CSX Spec Racers after all DO run a 351. The CSX car may well show some the young whipper snappers it's back side. Maybe, BMW, Vette and T-Bird IRS aint "all that" after all. MAYBE, a solid axle car will hang with the best of them?

Run the manufacturers wheels, only way to be sure of the over all package as offered to the public!

Ernie

[coyled]

Bruce, yes the jbl has a more sophisticated set up. But, so what. Does that really mean it is going to whip everybody else. In theory it should but it might not. And, if the difference is 1/2 of a second, big deal. If its 3 seconds faster, then JBL is the king. Lets just put equal size tires on all cobra's so that the tire excuse does not exist. I have been on the track with 3 or 4 really fast FFR cobra's and they are supposedly at the cheap end with donor parts. A crate 351 is easy for everybody to install and cheap. I think very highly of Richard and JBL might, and I mean might, be the fastest but by how much and at what cost difference. I would bet a trans am car could run 1:19's at willow. If a JBl cobra with a cup motor to run 1:19's at willow and I would buy it in a heart beat. Scott

[Boudy]

Originally posted by Boudy


Sniff... Sniff... Seams like a friendly challange to me. Any one else detect this?

Boudy

Hey guys, remember how this all started. Richard is only organizing it. He didn't decide to hold a challage so he could kick but and take names. It all started as a fun thing and we should keep it that way. Let's not attack Richard for organizing what one guy call and unfair event.

Richard designed a race car and then put a Cobra body on it. He doesn't try to hide that and we all know what he sells. Sure, he detunes it a bit and omits some expensive stuff to call it a street car but HEY, that's what he sells. Nothing is unfair about that, some of us claimed that we have a car that can keep up so we all said, "Fine Then, Let's See."

This challange is to see where the cars shake out. Not winning or losing, fair or unfair. Will bragging rights prevail, sure. Thing is, we'll have fun first and formost.

Boudy

[Excaliber]

Like your going to fit a 12x17 in the other Cobras? Bring some "snips" maybe a "torch" 'cause I know a "stock" FFR will NOT accept a footprint that large! I bet MOST of the stock Cobras won't accept a footprint that large. Now what do we do?

The FFR's "claim to fame" is it's light weight. Perhaps it can do more with less because of that?

How about, the largest wheel tire combo they CAN run in a STOCK body configuration, not to exceed a certain size? 12X17 comes to mind,,,,,,,,,,,

5 laps with stock wheels and more with the "big" guns! That works for me!

Ernie

[Bart Carter]

There are too many variables that come into play to make this a real comparison. Scott is absolutely right about tires. Tires are as important as the chassis. If you want to take away the engine factor, put in a stock 302 Ford and T5. In the end you have results that common sense would tell you anyway.

[Richard Hudgins]

Bruce R.


I agree with you on some points.

1. Tire and wheel size is a big deal. But, this was about standard as advertised automobiles. (See my post previous to this one discussing this issue.)

2. The JBL is not a 50 year old design. It is 10 years old. The technology is 25 years old. There is nothing trick on the car relative to current race cars. (Well, that is not true if you are comparing to a NASCAR piece. They are regulated to pretty basic stuff, However, you could buy a JBL for what the dampers cost on a Cup Car.) The JBL is actually quite dated and would have to be considered “Vintage” from a design standpoint.

3. You state "THE JBL IS A RACE CAR PERIOD." OK. Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the original cars "RACE CARS". I will bet you that the JBL makes a much better road car than an original car. Just try driving the two of them and you will understand.

4.The cars being built today had the opportunity to pick whatever bits that they wished. They had the opportunity to design to whatever suspension geometry, weight distribution, tire size, etc. that was required to make the best unit that they could. Nobody was standing there saying you have to design your car a certain way.

5. As to engines, It is quite simple, the crate 351 is a known quantity. It is cheap and everyone would have the same power output. As I said in an earlier post, if someone can come up with a 427 crate engine, Fine.. Run those.

The point here was to run the various cars produced today and see which ones worked the best.

Hey, if it would you happy, JBL could just stay home. Makes little difference to me.

But I bet the rest of Boys out there would like to see how these various cars really perform with the same engines, gearboxes, etc.

[Cobra University]

I agree with Richard's outlined specs to reduce variations.

It is tough to measure "chassis only".

17" wheels have a performance advantage compared to 15's. Not much, but enough to standout as apples vs. oranges. Some Cobra's cannot fit 15" wheels due to standard big brakes. I think the Johnex EQ has that issue. Huge brakes are standard. It WILL, however, carry a ton of merit if the 15" wheel Cobra runs similar laptimes as its 17" colleagues.

Same issue with Shelby's with standard big-block issue. Maybe the big-block will post more mph down the straight, but can it turn? If big-block is standard, then big-block it is. If a choice is available, then default to 351.

Perhaps adhere to Richard's "as advertised" specs, but with an added commentary from the driver.
(ie. "This car ran great with the standard 15" wheels. Yada yada yada blah blah blah... I would recommend the optional 17" wheels for even more traction.")

Have the test driver commentary for each car, along with recommended upgrades for best performance.
Then post results in chart form for lap time, G's on skid pad, slalom, and braking.
And let the readers review the performance charts along with "price as tested" and optional equipment available.

No "Top-Dog", so that every manufacturer looks good. Everyone wins through the print exposure.

I would also suggest using the short course at Willow Springs (Streets), because they have more turns/less straights to compare best handling not the fastest. And they have skid pad/slalom facilities.

[coyled]

I want to see the JBL run and I would like to see it at big willow mostly because its the original shelby track and lots of us have run there. I will bet you guys that there will be some unexpected strong performers in this event and some weaker ones too. Only one way to find out. Scott

[Bruce Robles]

Excaliber and Richard-
Excuse me for my ignorance. Let me see if can explain my sentances better. Let me also say that I am in know way trying to rain on any bodies parade. Driving at high speed is a blast any time for any reason.
I have been looking at replica cars for a short time and I have looked into the ERA car with its Jag. IRS. I've seen pictures of the Everett Morrison car with it's Corvette suspension and drive train. I've heard of Factory Five and thier Mustang Donner Car. I'd seen a JBL in a magazine a while ago and I think Herb Adams built a simuliar chassis.
I'm aware of the reasons for donners and I'm not against anybody building a better more up date piece. Someday, even NASCAR might have go to overhead cam motors etc.

But since for instance, the JBL has 25 year old racing suspension technology for sports racing cars of the day, and 12 inch wide wheels, and the Everett Morrison car has 1984 or 19 year old Corvette road going technology, on 9.5 in. wheels, I think there is a large gap in thier performance potentcial. The critira to put certain production cars in production car based racing classes, is in thier perfromance potentcial based on a number of things considered. That is how they come up with the rules. In un-production car rules they stipulate what you can build within certain guidelines, open wheel verses closed, wings, ground clearance, weight, front engine, rear engine etc.
Original Cobras were built as race cars, but they also had to build street prodcution cars as per FIA GT car specs at the time. In 1964 at the USRRC race at Riverside, Ken Miles drove a Prototype 427 Cobra in the sports racing class against the Jim Hall Chaparrel's, Lola T-70's, McLaren MKII & III's, a Factory GT-40 spyder and whole field of strange cars called Genie's and believe it an "Old Yeller"was in there. Miles and the 427 Cobra were not competitive with the state of the art racing cars, although he was ahead of the Old Yeller before he retired the Cobra. This was a racing test for the 427 Cobra, they knew it couldn't beat those other cars but they ran for testing purposes. It wasn't legal for the A Prouction race because there weren't production 427's yet. Miles also drove a 289 Cobra earlier in the day in the A-Production race which he won.
I guess that what I'm getting at, is I can't see how your going get a level playing field. The JBL to me is like the 427 Cobra at that race. If Shelby had shown up with a 298 in a longer wheel base car with just Coil Over Shocks, not to mention Rocker arms, a lower CG and roll center, a stretched and lowered body compared to a A-Production legal 289, they would have had to run it in Sports Racing Car or (C Modified) race too. Same as the 427. The 427 ran in the top 10 but I think Miles had a lot to do with that, it was faster than the 289.

It would be fun to see all the results of all the cars, and I guess that is what Richard is trying to do.
I don't know what times guys with real 298 and 427 Cobras do around Willow today, or if they are really pushing it.
Back in 1969 I'd say 1:33 or :32 on the track as it was and with the Goodyear race tire of the day. They ran A and B Prod. and A sedan in the same race heats. We were in B prod. and that sounds about right for AP times then. It's got to be quicker now with new tires and the track, if they are really pushing it.

Whatever you decide to do, it will be fun and you guys will figure it all out.
Right now, I don't have dog in this fight anyway, so what the h***!

[Richard Hudgins]

Bruce R.

First let me say that posts like yours just make me tired.

Please, Please read the total of posts in the discussion before you reply.

Christ, we can argue forever about classes, rules, equalization formulas, what happened in the past, Shelby this, Ken Miles that.

Believe me, I know about the various rules on production classes, prototype classes, formula whatever classes. I raced DP, EP, FP, CP, BS, AS, FF. FA, F5000, ETC. ETC. and I fought the rules just like anyone else.

But none of that has anything to do with this thread.

Now, back to the point of this thread.

Of course the cars are not equal.

That is the point.

What car works the best as a standard unit as offered to the public in the manufacturers ads or websites.

That's it!!!

Nothing more.

.What we are after here are the differences, not the sameness, not some equalized formula. Just what you build as a standard

There are no winners or losers here.

You give me a group of properly designed "replicas" with the same engines, gearboxes, and rear ratios and I will bet that I can be within 2 seconds in each one at Willow.

Now, if some are not "properly designed", well then, the numbers will differ.

But that’s the breaks.