Cobra Chassis Race Challenge - Page 5

TomH · #81 (**permalink**) 10-30-2003, 09:14 PM

Richard,

Keep the faith and the "run what 'ya brung spirit."

Bruce R.

You might want to do a lookup on "Homologation Special" before you go too much further talking about "street prodcution (sic) cars." (i.e. Pick up a Mustang shop manual from '69-70 you'll note an unusually large number of asterisks / footnotes "*Except..." to flag the race parts that were stuffed into the Boss 302s)

Let's just stipulate that if all things were the same, then all things would be equal.

Freedom fries be damned; vive la difference! Can we go back to having fun?

800hp · #82 (**permalink**) 10-31-2003, 09:42 AM

this hole thread was all about how well the car handled in stock specks from the mfg. and how it was designed . weather it is a jbl,era,ffr,shell valley,sai,renegade,highland,spf. how it is listed in there sales ad. that is it . no changes if it came with 15" wheels and a beam rear axel that is how it stays .no. that one has irs and 17"wheels and trick rockerarm suspension no fair.how can the others compair. that is the question that will be answerd .this should also just be for mfg's to partisipate in . owners have run and gun to go to it is better suited for you . (all the changes you want to make) there is already too many people saying you need to change this and that to make it equal for everyone bull ****! its not run what ya brung. its how the mfg lists the car in there ad thats it! if my take on this is wrong i am sorry but when i spoke with richard we were on the same page . also if any one would like to see our list of standard parts list i would be happy to list them.

jim riddell
www.renegaderoadster.com
(209)545-4653 (209)380-7521
now i if it will truely is unlimited i have no prob. with that i have some ideas for our entry but i think there should be a $ cap of around 150k

Excaliber · #83 (**permalink**) 10-31-2003, 10:47 AM

I'm on that page! Just like the manufacturer sells them out the door. Pretty simple.

Renegade,,,,,, "inboard" shocks, IRS, Wilwood brakes. Impressive specs! We got us a race shaping up!

Ernie

coyled · #84 (**permalink**) 10-31-2003, 10:57 AM

Jim, I saw your chassis set up and it is very impressive. I think this is a great idea that Richard has come up with. Does FFR get to enter a spec racer? They run those with basically stock 302's. What about finishline and their 351 based spec racer? It has more power than a crate motor. Scott

Boudy · #85 (**permalink**) 10-31-2003, 11:12 AM

Jim: I'll have to disagree that a car should be run exactly as advertised without any modifications to equal the field. Your thinking won't yeild the best handling car, only the car that has a higher entry point to the customer. Many vendors offer lower priced cars and leave the owner with options to upgrade.

Your method penalizes a manufacturer on terms of how well the chassis handles based on entry level price point. That is no indication of handling, which we are out to determine here.

Boudy

Boudy · #86 (**permalink**) 10-31-2003, 11:16 AM

OH, BTW: $150,000 limit on a car to race... HOLY COW! The car we took to Run & Gun retails for less than $50,000, motor and all.

Boudy

zipzip · #87 (**permalink**) 10-31-2003, 11:29 AM

Good God people! Please spellcheck before posting! It's so hard to keep up with the post when words are mangled! A few oopses here or there are normal, but man...

It seems that most people are missing what Richard is trying to do! Don't "soup" up your car just for this race, but let's get out there and see where everyone comes across the checkered line. People are still going to buy their "favorite" chassis based on whatever is important to them: authenticity, cost, performance, comfort, etc., etc. I don't see any negatives from that standpoint.

This seems like a very healthy competition that with the right media attention, could bring some very positive exposure to this industry. Just imagine the stoplight: cobra, SUV, cobra, cobra, mini-cooper, cobra, pickup truck, cobra...

There can be a debate about specific details forever, but the original suggestion is the best: common driver (skilled), same engine for all (even though the mfr might offer another as "standard"), same track, some warmup time then a few timed laps. This should provide the most accurate "car only" test.

In the words of celebrity deathmatch: "Let's get it on!"

TomH · #88 (**permalink**) 10-31-2003, 12:22 PM

Jim/800

To be clear, the "run what 'ya brung" was acknowledging the differences between the various manufacturers and not to suggest that the object was to see how far you could tweak each platform.

I was objecting to the suggested basterdization of the original proposition to the point where EVERYTHING needed to be equalized across all marques to be fair. I can watch NASCAR's "formula racing" 42 wks/yr.

Let's do this!

Richard Hudgins · #89 (**permalink**) 10-31-2003, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Boudy

Jim: I'll have to disagree that a car should be run exactly as advertised without any modifications to equal the field. Your thinking won't yeild the best handling car, only the car that has a higher entry point to the customer. Many vendors offer lower priced cars and leave the owner with options to upgrade.

Your method penalizes a manufacturer on terms of how well the chassis handles based on entry level price point. That is no indication of handling, which we are out to determine here.

Boudy

Boudy,

(First, please do not take this post as critical of you or your product. It applies to all manufacturers equally. And you are the one who made the post that I am quoting. Therefore, you’re it.)

I understand your point about an "ENTRY LEVEL" car.

However, you advertise your car at "X" price point. I do not see you posting a disclaimer that this car is in any way inferior and needs upgrades to perform well.

Matter of fact, I have never seen any manufacturer state this in their literature or on their websites. (I could be wrong about this, I really do not spend much time looking at other cars of this type.)

I feel that my point is quite simple, everyone needs to run the car that they sell to the public as a “STANDARD” offering.

You know, the product in their ads that proclaim “Rolling Chassis 25,900.00” or “complete kit 12,999.00”, or “STAGE III COMPONENT ROADSTER, 42,500.00”.

After all, price is one of the major things that folks look at first. BDR certainly has used price point as their main entry strategy into the market. So did FFR. So does just about everyone else. Price is the major factor in setting the various offerings competitive point in the replica market.

Therefore, I feel that it only proper that everyone run the car that defines their competitive position in the marketplace.

If one were to run modified cars, where is the truth in advertising in that?

750hp · #90 (**permalink**) 10-31-2003, 03:16 PM

You're a patient man who has shown great restraint, Richard. I'm tearing my hair out over here, and I'm not even a part of the Challenge.....

Boudy · #91 (**permalink**) 10-31-2003, 05:32 PM

Richard: This started for fun and we'll keep it that way, no offense taken.

My comments come from this point of view:

The tread that started this was, "Best Handling Cobra"
The resulting tread is, "Cobra Chassis Race Challange"

My understanding was that we were looking at the handling of our stock chassis'. For this reason, I fully understood your reasons to use similar tires, gears, engines, and a common driver to eliminate as many variables but the chassis.

My post you quoted was defending this as Jim said a car should not be allowed change anything. Our car does not comply with 3.73 rear or Hoosier radials so if I didn't defend your rules on it, we couldn't come play.

This is what my comments to market pricing referred to:
Our gears are 3.10, it's economical.
Our wheels are bolt on, it's economical.
Our tires/wheels are 15", again, economical.

Sorry, I guess I could have worded it differently.

Hell, one guy is even whining about spelling

Boudy

decooney · #92 (**permalink**) 10-31-2003, 05:53 PM

Hi Richard,

IMHO - Set base the guidelines for the challenge, and those who are willing to meet them are eligible to participate.

Seems to me that your original proposal to compete against other cars in their "standard configuration" is reasonable. Anything different would just end up being a parts comparison contest.

Good Luck.

Richard Hudgins · #93 (**permalink**) 10-31-2003, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Boudy

The tread that started this was, "Best Handling Cobra"
The resulting tread is, "Cobra Chassis Race Challange"

My understanding was that we were looking at the handling of our stock chassis'. For this reason, I fully understood your reasons to use similar tires, gears, engines, and a common driver to eliminate as many variables but the chassis.

This is what my comments to market pricing referred to:
Our gears are 3.10, it's economical.
Our wheels are bolt on, it's economical.
Our tires/wheels are 15", again, economical.

Sorry, I guess I could have worded it differently.

Hell, one guy is even whining about spelling

Boudy

Boudy,

That’s why I said (In one post) 3.55 or 3.73 and folks who could not match this ratio should get as close as possible. If BMW has nothing close, run the normal ratio. (I doubt there would much difference in times, it just skews the comparison a bit.)

The JBL wheels are bolt on. I have nothing against a center-lock wheel with a nut, but you cannot torque a knock on and that worries me. (Also, a center lock wheel does not in any way increase performance.)

As I also said, if the chassis is properly designed, I bet that I would be within 2 seconds chassis to chassis at Willow.

15.16.17,18. I do not care. Just put Hoosier DOT's on them all.

The reason for the Hoosiers is to get tires that are equal in performance. (Street tires are all over the place and really would make a big difference.)

I know that folks are going to say the wheel and tire width really makes a big difference. But it is not quite as much as one might think from my experience.

Actually, if the suspension geometry is not up to snuff, they are going be much better off with a narrow wheel and tire. Narrow units are not as sensitive to camber curves (and God forbid, bump steer !) as a wide wheel and tire.

And I agree, this is meant to be fun and informative. It should not evolve into a pissing contest.

After all, everyone thinks the JBL will run away and hide. I do not. It should do well, but we are dealing with a package that has dynamic limitations and I bet the cars will be pretty darn close.

(If the basic designs are good, that is.)

Excaliber · #94 (**permalink**) 10-31-2003, 08:06 PM

750hp....... I'm going bald watching this thread I tell you,,,,BALD!

Ernie

800hp · #95 (**permalink**) 11-05-2003, 09:16 AM

wow, no one with the stones to show up ? are richard and I the only ones to step up to the plate ? then no one should even talk about "the best handling cobra" if there mfg. of choice will not accept the chalange .
jim riddell
renegade roadster

Turk · #96 (**permalink**) 11-05-2003, 11:12 AM

I would be very surprised if this comes about.

Manufacturers will try to change the playing field to suit their stregths.

Hell, if I was a 4 wheel drive Cobra manufacturer and wanted to be included in this little challenge, I would insist that the event be held at a dirt track, and that every car was kept to 18" ground clearance etc. etc.

We are not going to be able to equilize every component.
4 speed vs. 5 speed, 3:08 vs. 3:31, 15" tires vs 17"...

Bring out the car you advertise and sell to masses, and see what she'll do driven by the same driver.

We are trying to get a feel for how your car performs as advertised. Not how your driver does!

What good would come out of ME driving my CSX against Dennis Olthoff driving his SPF. What would that prove?

I didn't know Finish Line was a manufacturer of Cobras....

TURK

valpodoc · #97 (**permalink**) 11-05-2003, 12:24 PM

suggestion.... start by setting a date.
Roland

Richard Hudgins · #98 (**permalink**) 11-05-2003, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by valpodoc

suggestion.... start by setting a date.
Roland

Roland,

Please note first post in this thread.

I stated that it should held during the COCOA event next October at Willow Springs.

jayscobras · #99 (**permalink**) 11-05-2003, 02:47 PM

I would REALLY like to see this happen. Richard if I can help in any way please let me know.

For those of you who know me and my love of these cars knows that I am a fan of every mfg out there. I have had the opportunity to race a Classic, Ecalibur and Everett Morrison on the track. I have pit crewed for Hunter, Backdraft, B&B, CMC and Classic. Also worked on almost every other mfg. and driven almost all brands. I even got to see a JBL at Hallett Raceway on June 11, 1998.

I think the industry needs a comparison like this if done as properly as you suggest.

I even agree with Ernie that there should be a sticky on this but would like to recomend that it be limited to cobra manufacturers only and have a moderator insure that. keep this thread for suggestions, gripes, whines, etc.

I for one would love to attend should this become a reality and I really hope it does.

One idea that I might have value is not to have one driver but two and then have them rate each car and average the results like a 1-10 on each catagory.

Should a manufacturer choose not to participate I think that does not mean that they are afraid and it should not hurt their image. That is easily accomplished when the results are posted "the cars that were evaluated performed as follows...".

As time goes by I think more of the manufacturers will step in here. Like most conventions I used to go to, it is not who was there but who wasn't that got talked about.

Just my 2 cents and support.

Jay

P.s. 800hp I think that you need to reread this thread. Highland daytona Racing said that they were in and I am sure that Backdraft is in knowing Boudy. And oh...by the way, being an old country boy I learned that the guy with the biggest "stones" normally doesn't need to try to throw them.

Boudy · #**100** (**permalink**) 11-05-2003, 04:03 PM

Jay: Yep, you are correct, Backdraft will be there.

Boudy