Quality concerns between a $25k and $50K Cobra? - Page 3

BLACKJACK · #41 (**permalink**) 10-30-2003, 02:12 PM

OKAY,, MATT - - -

YOU'RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK.

THE BEST WAY TO LEARN ABOUT ALL THE OPTIONS IS FROM THE MANUFACTURERS. CONTACT ALL OF THEM - TELL THEM YOU ARE GOING TO BUY A COBRA AND WOULD LIKE ALL AVAILABLE INFORMATION ON THEIR CAR(S) AND THE AVAILABLE ACCESSORIES.

KEEP IN MIND THOUGH TO NOT JUDGE THE QUALITY OF THE CAR BUY THE QUALITY OF THE ADVERTISING MATERIAL. SOME MANUFACTURERS OF "MODEST" CARS HAVE VERY NICE FOUR COLOR LITERATURE WHILE SOME OF THE BEST QUALITY MANUFACTURERS HAVE VERY MODEST BROCHURES.

ALL YOUR REALLY LOOKING FOR AT THIS STAGE IS TO IDENTIFY THE OPTIONS THAT YOU WANT ON THE CAR. THE "HOMEWORK" PART COMES IN WHEN YOU CONSTRUCT A MATRIX OF MANUFACTURERS AND ACCESSORIES. IT WILL ALSO GIVE YOU A PLACE TO START IN DEVELOPING YOUR BUDGET.

ONCE YOU HAVE MATRIXED THE ABOVE AND CONSIDERED YOUR BUDGET YOU WILL BE ABLE NARROW THE FIELD OF CANDIDATE CARS DOWN TO TWO OR THREE. AT THAT POINT YOU CAN TURN THIS THREAD INTO AN ENCYLOPEDIA BUY ASKING SPECIFIC QUESTIONS ABOUT SPECIFIC CARS.

REMEMBER THOUGH THAT IF YOU POSE QUESTIONS SUCH AS "WHICH IS BETTER, A BIG BLOCK OR A SMALL BLOCK"??? OR ANYTHING DEALING WITH "REAL" VS. "NOT SO REAL" VS "NOT VERY REAL" VS "FAKE" YOU'LL FIND YOURSELF SPENDING MANY HOURS SORTING OUT ALL OF THE RESPONSES AND THEN WONDER WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO YOUR ORIGINAL THREAD.

ONE THING YOU'LL FIND NO SHORTAGE OF HERE IS "OPINIONS". THE FUN IS ONLY BEGINNING.

GOOD LUCK

Y'ALL HAVE A REALLY GREAT DAY.

BLACKJACK

mrmustang · #42 (**permalink**) 10-30-2003, 02:29 PM

Ernie,

For the record, Rousch & Saleen use the Ford VIN as their base, then add in their own numbering system afterwards. Similar to what Shelby did for the "Shelby Mustangs" of 1967-1970 where they used the Ford supplied serial number, then added in their own unique serial number to the end of it..........I can offer examples if you like...............

Bill S.

B. SMITH · #43 (**permalink**) 10-30-2003, 04:03 PM

EASY ON ERNIE.

EVERYONE IS SOMEWHAT RIGHT ABOUT THE NUMBERS, OK.
THIS DOESN'T ALTER THE FACT THAT THE MORE ACCURATE CARS WITH WHATEVER NUMBERS USUALLY COST MORE.

IT GETS DOWN TO THE POINT; WHO CARES??
BUY OR BUILD WHAT YOU WANT OR CAN AFFORD.
THEY ALL HOLD THEIR VALUE FAIRLY WELL.

PAY LESS, YOU GET LESS RISK, MORE USEABILITY AND LESS RESPONSIBILITY.

PAY MORE, YOU GET MORE RISK, LESS USEABILITY AND MORE RESPONSIBILITY.

AS ERNIE SAYS, MOST PEOPLE AT A "NORMAL" CAR SHOW LIKE COBRAS ANYWAY AND DON'T "PERCEIVE" MUCH DIFFERENCE IN CAR VALUE AT ALL.
I HAVE EVEN HEARD PEOPLE SAY THAT A $200,000 ORIGINAL WAS "NOT AS NICE" AS THE OTHER COBRAS PRESENT. THE OWNER WAS OFFENDED. THE REPLICA GUYS LOVED IT. GUESS WHO WENT HOME THE MOST HAPPY?

THE ANSWER IS....................."EVERYBODY" IF IT DIDN'T RAIN.

B. SMITH

BLACKJACK · #44 (**permalink**) 10-30-2003, 06:00 PM

WELL SAID, B.

BJ

Edley Rondinone · #45 (**permalink**) 10-30-2003, 07:58 PM

Mattr762: Check ou the Cobras for sale on CobraCountry.Com. compare prices of those cars, and get a feel of what costs what. You wont get halfway thru the list of cars for sale, and you will have your own checklist. Main issues are:
1. what you can afford; how much can you spend?
2. How accurate do you want your Cobra? Accuracy costs money.
3. What are your plans/uses for the car? Variety costs money.
4. What options do you want? Options cost money.
5. How handy are you? Completeness costs money.
Good luck!

Excaliber · #46 (**permalink**) 10-30-2003, 10:01 PM

Saleen, Roush, Smokey Yunick, Shelby, many others,,,,,,man, thats awesome to have your name associated with a group like that! I'd be proud to have any of those guys "modify" my Vin number!

Ernie

mattr762 · #47 (**permalink**) 11-04-2003, 03:46 PM

Just wanted this thread to link to another similar great thread.

Answers alot of questions. Here it is.

vegan2 · #48 (**permalink**) 11-05-2003, 08:47 AM

I went through the same dilemma about 6 months ago. To me, it came down to how close could I get to an original Cobra on my budget. The dream is an original Cobra and probably to have owned it in the 60's, but that dream was not possible at that time and is out of reach at this time, partly based on the fact that I would not own a Cobra, or any car, that cost that much - let along drive it.

I dealt with the used market, quickly finding out that there are top tier builders - based on attention to detail and closeness to the original. "Options" came next, just as are considered when you purchase a new car. If your budget can handle a 427 side oiler - get one with the 428 FE an alternative and a little less expensive. It's all less expensive as you go down from there, unless someone has done a real number on a "new" engine.

I ended up with a 428 FE engine and real Halibrands - life is good.

foothills gary · #49 (**permalink**) 11-05-2003, 10:12 AM

I ordered my car with upgrades in the suspension and brakes,with a 428, knowing if I wanted to upgrade later,all the underpinnings were in place.ERA offers an optional rear end with outboard brakes and a trick adjustable rear sway bar.The larger brakes tuck into the 15" pindrives,so even if I don't need them now,if autocross is in my future they're already in place,and "Ginnie" looks are preserved.I think the primary difference between a $25k and $50k car lies under the skin in the chassis area,and when considering a buy one has to ask not just what you want or "need" now,but what you may want to do in the future with your car.Does it possess adequate chassis strength and rigidity to handle megapower upgrades without flex(the kiss of death for fiberglass).To my knowledge,all of the $50k+ major players do possess these qualities.

FSAEracer03 · #50 (**permalink**) 11-06-2003, 03:47 PM

Hey all,

I'm Kevin... I'm new to the forum. I work at a race shop specializing in cobras over in Virginia, Bryan Dobyns Motorsports (or BDM for short). Just wanted to introduce myself and add my .02 to this topic... Whether my cobra will be a $25k FFR or a $70k ERA, I'll be happy to be blessed with any cobra I get. After working at BDM for a year and a half and driving two FFR spec racers, I'm in love... actually, I was in love when I first walked into the shop two years ago looking for work.

God Bless the cobra

-Kevin

BLACKJACK · #51 (**permalink**) 11-06-2003, 04:27 PM

HEY, KEVIN,

GOOD TO SEE ON THE FORUM. WELCOME.

I'D LIKE TO INVITE YOU JOIN US (THE CACC) FOR BREAKFAST AT THE VIENNA INN. SATURDAYS AT 8:00 AM. WE HAVE AS MANY AS 25 OR 30 MEMBERS ON "GREASE-UP" DAY. SOME GUYS COME FROM FARTHER AWAY THAN FRONT ROYAL TO ABUSE THEIR BLOOD VESSELS.

THERE'S ALWAYS A LOT OF COBRAS AND A FEW GT-40s AS WELL. A GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO SEE AND COMPARE THE PRODUCTS OF A LOT OF DIFFERENT MANUFACTURERS.

CALL OR E-MAIL ME IF YOU NEED DIRECTIONS OR ANY OTHER INFO.

Y'ALL HAVE A REALLY GREAT DAY

BLACKJACK (aka JACK MOGUS)

FSAEracer03 · #52 (**permalink**) 11-06-2003, 04:59 PM

sounds like a great idea!

I'm going to school in Melbourne, FL right now (FIT) but I will be back in town for thanksgiving and my birthday (which just so happens to be that saturday!) so I'm going to write this down and hopefully make it there.

I'm also going to be home for Christmas break, and hopefully working back at the shop for a bit. You are in the Manassas area, have you heard of BDM before?? I saw one of our customers posts on here, DanElam.

Anyways, I'll email you when I get back to my apartment, I'm at work right now, and try to get in contact with you.

-Kevin

SSS · #53 (**permalink**) 11-07-2003, 11:56 AM

Hi Matt, welcome to the madness. I'll try to give some advice from my personal experience. I researched Cobra replicas for 2 years before I made the plunge, and it was not until the end of my research that I felt I had a grasp on what the difference is between a $25k and $50k car.

I could never consider a $50k car, because my budget would not allow it. I ended up purchasing a custom-built car for $26k complete. I'll go over the various aspects of my car and point out where I think a "premium" Cobra should be better. The Cobra replica industry is very mature, and I think you can count on getting your money's worth. If a car costs more, with similar components, it's going to be superior in quality and detail.

Here's the photo gallery of my Cobra. The manufacturer, Pacific Roadsters, designed the car to accept "donor" parts from '87 to '93 Mustangs, similar to FFR. I specified a "street car" look, with original interior, soft top (not shown), no roll bar, and no bumpers (my personal choice). This was completely built for me with engine, radiator, solid axle, gas tank, and some suspension pieces from a '93 Mustang with 108,000 miles. The tranny is a rebuilt T5. The wheels are 15" Edelbrock 454's, which I think work perfectly on a Cobra.

Engine/tranny - you are correct to exclude these from comparing cars. They aren't part of the car, and whatever combination you want can be put in most any Cobra replica. A donor build was the only way I could get a Cobra in my price range. Other than aesthetics, I am totally happy with my 200 hp EFI setup. It's plenty loud and fast. Nobody ever guesses by the sound that it's a small block. If I were in the market for a premium Cobra, I would only want a carbed big block for authenticity's sake.

Body - I absolutely love the shape of the body on my car. It's one of the main reasons I chose Pacific Roadster. You don't have to pay extra for good looks. As far as quality goes, I think it's probably thicker than most. There are return lips in all openings. It looks great. But, where the return lips end I can feel fiberglass threads. You can't see them, but you can feel them if you reach inside. I would expect a premium Cobra to not have loose threads. Under the hood, the underside of the scoop has a coarse finish. The fit of the doors, trunk, and hood are not perfect. I don't think there's much (if any) metal inside the doors or hood or trunk. The latches all seem to be mounted to fiberglass instead of steel. This is adequate, but you have to be careful. You can't slam the doors too much. I would expect a premium Cobra to have all hardware mounted to steel. I doubt the smoothness of the body is perfect, but I don't notice any flaws. It's not perfectly symmetrical either. For example, the left rear fender rides 1/2" higher over the tire than the right side. I think this is adjustable, but I don't really care at this point. It's not noticeable at first glance.

Paint - you should separate this from your comparison. Any body can be given a top notch paint job. My car was also painted by the builder, with a less than show-quality job. Overall, the paint looks great. The return lips in the cockpit are not perfectly finished. There are pinholes along the edges, but it's not noticeable from the outside. There are runs at the very bottom edges of the body which I only noticed when the car was on a lift. It's not perfect, but I'm happy with it. I'd like for there to be no pinholes in the return lips, but I don't think I'd change anything else. I bought this car to drive, and there are HUNDREDS of chips in the paint on the nose and the rear fenders from rocks and whatnot. If you plan to drive your car, I think it would break a heart to see these chips on a show-quality paint job. Keep that in mind.

Frame - I wouldn't get too caught up in the structure of the frame unless you want a car specifically for autocrossing or some other unique application. Except JBL, all Cobra replica frames are ladder-style. Some have round tubes, some have rectangular. I think the simpler rectangle-tube frames with few crossmembers would be more flexible than the others. They're ALL strong enough. My car has a 4" round tube frame, and it's plenty stiff and strong for a street car. Too stiff probably. What you should be more concerned with in a frame is the suspension geometry setup, and the quality of welds and paint. I don't know anything about welding, but I can tell you the paint on my frame is crap. It has runs everywhere and the coverage is inconsistent. If I had built the car myself, I would have done a much better job in this department. Safety features such as side impact protection, functional roll bar, and gas tank protection are important. I doubt that Cobra manufacturers have the skill or testing to make crumple zones that are actually useful. I'm not aware that any Cobra replica has functional quick jacks either. I doubt any have bumpers that could actually withstand a 5 mph collision without doing damage.

Suspension - this is an important consideration. My car has custom adjustable upper control arms front and rear, with Mustang lowers. My car has Aldan coilover shocks in the front, and Strange coilover shocks in the rear. As I said before, it also has a Ford solid axle. The ride of my car is the single biggest thing that I don't like. The roads in the Dallas area can get pretty bumpy, and I feel every damn bump. My shocks are 5-way adjustable, but no setting satisfies me. My wife has to brace her chest while riding with me, or she'd be drooping to her knees in no time! I would expect a premium Cobra to have a more advanced suspension (IRS for sure), that handles well yet is driveable on the street without rattling your brains.

Brakes - my car has Mustang discs in front and drums in rear. This is actually one feature I overlooked, and assumed I was getting 4-way discs as they were all 5-lug. My car probably only weighs 2400 lbs, but the brakes don't stop it as well as I would like. A premium Cobra should have 4-way discs that are large enough to stop you well. If you have a lot of horses, they must be matched with enough brakes.

Chrome - my car has ceramic coated sidepipes and BBK headers. There is a straight pipe that connects the headers to the sidepipes. It cost a few hundred for the ceramic coating, and it is absolutely worth it. It insulates the heat very well and looks fabulous. I've grazed the hot pipes with my leg a few times with no burns. If you don't like chrome, I would advise black ceramic coating. I don't have a roll bar, but if I did I would have had it chromed. That's a couple hundred extra. Chrome (or ceramic) is not a huge difference in price, especially for a $50k car.

Interior - I wanted an original style interior, and I think mine accomplishes this. I have autometer vintage style gauges in the original street layout. I don't care for a big wooden steering wheel, so I got a smaller black one. It's difficult to steer at low speed, but it's easier to get in the car with a smaller wheel. I have an original style shifter, and the e-brake is from the Mustang with a custom boot. It works for me. My seats are vinyl, and I can't think of any good reason to get leather unless you want them to look worn out in no time. The vinyl is perfect. I have 5-point belts (the fifth point holds the belt down to your hips, which is important). It's so much trouble to buckle the thing, and I keep forgetting to release the parking brake first, so I normally only use the lap belt. I'll be eating the steering wheel if I have an accident, though. In terms of comfort, I'm about 5'10", and my car has PLENTY of room for me. It's still a trick to get in and out, especially when the top's on. I doubt that any Cobra would be comfortable on long trips.

Quote:

When you put a $25k cobra next to a $50k cobra are you gonna say "WOW!" look how much better the $50K car looks?

Not necessarily. I think my car is proof that you can make a great looking and sounding car for $25k. You'd have to drive it or open the hood or look at the underside on a lift, or carefully inspect the details to see the difference.

One other consideration I didn't mention is how serviceable the car is designed to be. I'd want a premium Cobra to be designed so that it is easier to work on than mine. Every time I work on the car, I pull my hair out because it's so difficult to reach any bolt. Most of the time I have to bend my wrist at an odd angle and can only turn the wrench like 15 degrees at a time. This kind of thing would be indicative of a design that is worthy of a higher cost.

A lot of my complaints with my car are due to the quality of the build. Premium Cobra manufacturers purposely keep the build quality of their cars high by doing most of it themselves. This builds in an extra cost.

I know this is a lot, but I hope it helps!

foothills gary · #54 (**permalink**) 11-07-2003, 03:48 PM

Very well stated,SSS.Your car also looks outstanding!The yellow looks"just right",the Edelbrock 454's look sweet(the first I have actually seen them them on a Cobra).It is indeed a very good looking body,and I definitely like it's stance.

FSAEracer03 · #55 (**permalink**) 11-07-2003, 04:17 PM

WOW, I must say, from the exterior looks, I would never have guess your cobra was only worth $26k! What kit was this from? I'm interested in what other company can produce such a low price kit next to FFR.

Bravo!

FSAEracer03 · #56 (**permalink**) 11-07-2003, 04:21 PM

nevermind... Carcepts... i forgot it was listed under your name (i had a senior moment =] )

CowtownCobra · #57 (**permalink**) 12-08-2003, 11:47 AM

Interesting, the Carcepts cobra of SSS is for sale on e-bay,

e-bay

CRZN427 · #58 (**permalink**) 12-09-2003, 12:19 AM

I had an LAE that I put less than $27k in to build. I drove it for seven years and over 40k miles before selling it.

In that time I collected 30 trophies including best in class and best of show. I got several of the trophies at shows with other Cobras in attendance, (Knott's and Laughlin included) most of the time the other owners claimed to have invested much more in his car than I had in mine. Several times I personally knew the other owner and knew that he had spent more.

An earlier poster said that he was surprised that the yellow car was "worth" only $25K.

The worth of a car is not always expressed in $$$.

A car may be sold at a certain price (its worth?) but might have gotten more on a different day with a different buyer. The worth is pretty much what the traffic will bare and how bad the buyer wants a particular car.

The Kirkham (and SAI) cars are expensive due to the imported aluminum body and the high end parts selected to be included with the kit.

The FFR cars are not so expenxive due to the single donor car concept (which has caught on with other Cobra manufacturers) and the modern computer based manufacturing machines that they employ.

Several of us have decided that FFR makes what we want to be able to drive and appreciate the cost conscious approach they took to allow us to make it.

I also seem to recall that the FFR cars were in the top of class at the last several Run-N-Gun events, which goes to show that an inexpensive car deserves some respect.

If you choose an FFR with all new "brand name" parts, and hire an experienced engine builder to give you the muscle, and an experienced assembly shop to put it all together for you, you will spend close to the high end of the Cobra class to be able to drive your car.

You would then not stop at putting in leather, and a high quality paint job on the car, would you?

Is it then worth $50 of $60k? Of course it is. The value is in the internals. BTW, with the FFR , that includes a very well designed chassis.

The choices are, almost, endless and, mostly, all are good ones.

TampaFla · #59 (**permalink**) 01-27-2004, 10:56 AM

At the Barrett auction, one of the announcers commented (on a "new" Shelby Cobra), that $30,000 of the total price ($100,000+) was for Carroll Shelby's signature on the car. Beauty ($$$) is in the eye of the beholder as they say.

grumpy · #60 (**permalink**) 01-27-2004, 11:32 AM

Felllas, fellas,
Now that this thread has had a good run
and the concensus is QUALITY equals COST, that is you have to spend the bucks to get quality is very wrong in that of a summation.
DOM steel welded by certified welders is almost 100% the same. Hand laid fiberglass is just that, it's just hand laid that is if the manufacturer is truly being honest, (and that's a good test of a company's honesty), the aluminum comes from the same suppliers for the interior panels, so the QUALITY related here is really craftsmanship, not QUALITY. The fit finish, the accuracy of all the bolt togather assemblies and such so that you see which is really not quality, it's the CRAFTSMANSHIP of the company.
With that as fact, removing emotional feelings of "mines better", then we move into the design area of the car or the assemblage of the donor parts, none of the assembly parts excluding above noted are normally supplied by the manufacturer, there are shelf parts from a major auto supplier, are we calling those fellas QUALITY into the picture?. I hope not.
So if all above is actually FACT not assumptions or personal favorites then a Factory Five chassis and or body is no LESS than or BETTER than a Shelby American glass car and vice-versa . Now we get the real picture, so COST of the basics DO NOT RELATE that much to QUALITY but Craftmanship and how the company treats you is really the true test of a COBRA SELCTION NOT MONEY. Some noted that computers are a part of this and makes the cars better, great for keeping records, design, and communications, but NO COBRA replica/kit manufacturer has a body laid up with computers, or frames welded by computers, if I am wrong on that one let me know, and I'll get back on my mule and go home..
grumpy