cobra manufacturers challenge

[AC Cobra]

Valpodoc may have a good idea here. But, there needs to be a "comparison factor". Or, competition of some sort.

The Car & Driver example is an excellent approach. Select a group of similiarly equipped cars, with similiar power plants, from all major manufacturers and use two or three (well known) competent drivers to rate the car's performance from a pre-selected set of standards. The winner, or winners, can use the results as promotion of their products.

Except maybe Kit Car magazine may be a more appropriate venue. But, haven't they done this before?

AC

[Richard Hudgins]

Folks,

First, everyone should look at the original thread. It is located here: Cobra Race Challenge

I think that most everything has been stated on that thread. There is little sense in stating it again on this thread.

Mr. Lake.

You stated:

1 had a ringer in the wrong class with softer tires than allowed for that class and was moved up. Finger pointing started and it was not what this event was to do. The event is for fun and for average drivers and cars to run against the clock for best time, not for who's company was in first place and how many trophy they won. Then run around and use this as a advertizement we make better car than anyother companys.

Exactly the point of the Manufacturer race challenge. No tricks allowed. You run a bone stock car, with engine, gearbox, rear end ratio fixed, and spec tire brand. All driven by the same non affiliated pro driver. The R&G is a good event, but it proves nothing from a technical standpoint about the basic design of the vehicles.

Give me the worst designed piece out there, 90 days and 30k budget and it will be as quick as any Cobra there is. But it will not be what "Joe Cobra owner" buys from the manufacturer. It will no longer be as "Advertised" by the manufacturer. It will be a "A RINGER."


You also stated:

"How would you like to be the company that is the slowest or poorest designed. How long would your company last with this kind of knowledge being spread around. Bet you are bankrupt in a year. No body wins this kind of test."

Is not that the nature of business. If you have a inferior product relative to your competition and word gets around, you go out of business.

Also, I disagree with your statement that nobody wins.

The customer certainly does.




Disclaimer and Notice: JBL has already withdrawn from this challenge. As the JBL is considered a “Funny Car” or a “Ringer” in stock trim by a number of folks, it was deemed only fair that JBL abstain from the event. Therefore, no vested interest on JBL’s part in this challenge.

As an aside, I really do not have the time for the emails.

[valpodoc]

Rich,

[valpodoc]

Sorry, rich, I've read the original thread and I'm not sure I agree with the idea of same drive train, tires etc... Maybe a more relaxed approach... bring a stock car complete with build sheet. Same track, same drivers. Low key, cook some dogs on the grill and drink beer. And Rich I'd love to have one of your cars at the event. As I see it...healthy competition between family. Like a family basketball game on thanksgiving.

Maybe a bit idealistic....but it would be fun.
Roland

[RICK LAKE]

Richard Hudgins JBL I am not famillar with your car company, so I have not opinion about your car. Any one can take a $30 K car and with $30 k make it run with the best cars on the market. This is why must of the cobra owners update there cars and make them better. As far as R&G I don't know if you have raced there but info is freely traded between drivers on how to make your car handle and run better. I sure that you try to make your company improve every day and become a better leader in the field. I have seen very few customers that know what cars have a great suspenion system and what car don't. Most look at how pretty they are and not how well they are designed. When you sell a car do you tell them with a warmed over motor under the hood to Take it easy with this car??? The car is very unforgiven when you make a poor judgement in driving. The handling is beyond your driving ablitity. Probably not. You might say that you should go to a driving school to brush up on your skills. As long as the car is sold that's all that matters. RIGHT??? I wonder how many people have died from this. You say that that is the nature of the bussiness. There car cobra types you can buy for 15-30K Compare them to Contemporys, ERA, Shelbys, VSE, and Kirkhams, you can't. I don't know the folks that call you car "a funny car" or a ringer in stock trim. I didnot know that you had many options to change suspension, wheel base, areo package or gas,electric,turbine motors for your car. And finally you have no time for e-mails, your was anything but short. Rich Good luck with JBL, I'm sure you make a fine product, so do many others,ERA will never get envolved with this event either. Their fear is someone getting KILLED. It's not worth it. You need to lighten up and have a nice day. Rick Lake

[coyled]

Rick, give us a break. If ERA does not want in because they don't see any benefit, I understand. The fear of somebody getting killed? I think guys like John Morton and Boris Said understand the risk and trust me, this would be way safer than run n gun because of the experience of the drivers and at willow springs, no walls. Richards 30k comment is true. Look at all the different makes of cobra's that have been the fastest at various events. I have open tracked and seen an ERA, FFR, JBL, CSX, and even a hi-tech as the fastest cobra. We all know the prices, we all know which ones look original, we know which ones have nice fit and finish, but we have no idea in stock trim, as advertised, how they would compare. The times would likely be within a few seconds of each other. The medea coverage alone would give the cobra manufacturers all a lot more exposure and thus increase sales of everyone of them. Healthy competition is a good thing, it would help everybody. Scott

[NeedAntiVenom]

Rick,

I agree with you. Nothing of value will come from it.

Drivers win races, not cars, it would be nothing more than a test of drivers.

As to what the best Cobra is? The same thing that sets them apart from all other cars - you make it what is best for you. For some it's 800 HP, or razor sharp handling, or the faithful replication of the original, or anything in between.

The "best" Cobra is the one that sits in your garage, or in your imagination waiting to become real.

Of course, it would have to be a small block.

[Excaliber]

Rick,
If you had read the original thread from which this thread grew you would have a totally different idea about who and what JBL is about.

Your critique is WAY out of line. JBL is NOT looking to be some kind of "leader" in the business. Their replica is a "by product" of their larger business, a labor of love if you would. They sell VERY FEW units and are not looking to increase sales. 15 or so units a year!

This whole thing was never about "marketing" for JBL. It was in response to which replica manufacturer produced the best MODERN chassis. In particular Renegade chassis' have an interesting design which you could say is "similiar" to a JBL. BDR feels their car is a worthy contender for the prize.

Having opened your mouth and inserted your foot therein I think you owe it to Richard to read the other thread. JBL is a remarkable business run by remarkable and EXTREMELY talented people.

As Richard has stated he would rather spend his time with ONE customer teaching them how to drive the car than spend his time building ONE car to go to some "show".

Ernie

[RICK LAKE]

Excaliber Ernie I only answered to the challenge question. If you read my statement about not knowing JBL, I think this said it ALL. They build Cobras, RIGHT!! I hope it is the best that can be built. You said it is a byproduct, RIGHT! It's nice to Have your knowledge of JBL and how they do bussiness, I have seen others without this kind of professionalism. The point to be made is THAT THIS IS NOT A GOOD IDEA.. If JBL build 1 car a year and it runs, handles, stops and starts and the customer is happy with the car and is ADVISED to me careful thats the important thing. Maybe next year JBL will sell 30 cars? Do you know?? You say a modern chassic, Most cars are running a modern chassic. ERA went to a 1 shock rear for there cars and outboard brakes. Herb Adams built a mono chassic for VSE 8-10 years ago. Talented and remarkable people, Most Replica cobra companys have this, what is your point? Ernie I responded to his statement just like you to mine. Coyled Scott First I donot speak for ERA policies. Your right about ERA not needing this as for there product speaks for it self. Many times you read this ERA is compared to other companys, just like other engine builder. The great ones need no races, dyno pulls, best of show trophys to show they are on the top of there market John Morton and Boris Said are to great racers, they are also PAIDED to race most of the time and they know the risk. Your high media coverage is nice but cars break, accidents happen, some one could get killed for friend competition. What a black eye for the cobra industry .I race my car and know I could get hurt or destroy my car that took 5 years to build. I am not sell ERA cars, have no stock in them, have no support other than info on improving the car or updates to them. You can not say the same for manufacturers. Your right about on any given day any car can be the best or luckiest. To much of anything, friendly or other competition is not always good RicK Lake

[Excaliber]

Modern components in replicas are indeed common. A few, very few, have gone way beyond that and started with a blank sheet of paper. JBL is such a design. From an engineering stand point it's pretty impressive.

My personal feeling on the chassis design question is: JBL maybe the best that is currently available. If I was going racing, I'd buy one! But I think I'm going "cruising", so I'll buy a Classic Roadster. I wonder how it would stack up against a JBL? I'd like to see that!

Ernie

[valpodoc]

Rick, if your worried about getting hurt ride a bike. The risk involved with these cars is part of the reason we drive them. The original idea involved a variety of cobra configurations driven by the same driver on the same track on an attempt to compare peformance. It is not designed to be an assessment or statification of cobra manufacturers. Moreover, because the drivers are professionals and not racing "wheel to wheel" I feel this could be accomplished with less risk than you take driving to the track.
I would love to see JBL, ERA, SA, SPF etc run this event not for bragging rights but as a comparision across designs.
If this event comes to fruition I'll be there, but I'm not holding my breath...too much testosterone.
Roland

[Richard Hudgins]

Mr Lake,

Run & Gun 1994 Firebird Raceway, Arizona. Original JBL design (Built by SMC) won "Best Engineering Award". This was a 90 inch car. Otherwise identical to the current chassis design.

Herb Adams VSE was also there. Very nice design.

The only chassis options on the JBL are springs and dampers. There are some Aero and roll bar/cage options.

Please rest assured, JBL will not build more than 15 cars next year.

Now, I must say that I am having a very difficult time understanding your logic and the point relative to this subject. I must be misreading something.

I also misunderstand your statement to me: "You need to lighten up and have a nice day".

Did I say something to piss you off?

To paraphrase the baud:

"The lake doth protest too much, methinks."

[PatBuckley]

Those "stream of conscience" posts are a little hard to follow at times!

[bmalone]

I guess we all can't read--or write for that matter. Well said, Richard.

[MysteryTrain]

Richard,

In the initial thread where this idea was first bandied about, I was impressed by your challenge, and was 100% for it. I was equally dismayed when you said JBL would be out. Now, after reading some of Mr. Lake's posts, and a few of the others who are deriding the idea, I understand why you felt it would be best for JBL to be on the sidelines. You showed much class by not directly indicating why, but I get it now. Some people just like to supress any act of creativity. And there are enough of them to ruin a good idea, and give you headaches you definitely don't need. All you need to know is that there are plenty of us who completely duplicated what your intentions were, and understood the sanity of the initial stipulations: we GOT it. The idea you proposed was one that would settle whose chassis set up handles best. I dare anyone to argue that your initial rules WOULDN"T prove that. But, alas, it is being misunderstood, misinterpreted, perverted and misconstrued in every way imaginable.

Anyway, just for fun, I must second Turk's request to post the names of the dimwits who have sent antagonistic/argumentative emails to you. If we can't sit by and enjoy a friendly comparison test, at least let a few of us have som fun at the expense of the killjoys!

MTrain

[RACER X #99]

Rick Lake,
Please change you location to another state. Your really starting to embarrass the rest of us low lifes here in good ol'e NJ.
Did you ever bother to attend any English classes while in our school system?
Im only glad that you never took us up on our invitations to join us at the Glen.
Respectfully,
Roger Davis

[Buzz]

Rick, for a guy that has not really been known to be antagonistic in the past, you sure seem to be more than a little crotchety lately. First you get all hissy when anyone dares to prefer our Cobras over the ugly Dragon cars and now you're pontificating on this subject. In the beginning I figured it must be a time of the month thing, but now your irrational mood swings have convinced me you've gone too far and gotten yourself pregnant (any strange food cravings lately?). Now we know what the problem is, we'll all be more understanding - But just out of curiosity; WHO DE DADDY IS???!!

[rdorman]

I think the idea of a chassis shootout was and is a good idea as presented. Same tires, motors, transmissions, gears and drivers. He!! yes it will prove something. He!! yes it would be a valid comparison. He!! yes it would be a blast to attend and count me in! This is not a 'the worlds best Cobra' nor 'are replicas better than original' event. It is just get the chassis's out there and lets see what they can do on a relatively even playing field.

Price difference, all new or 'donor' type parts who gives a $hit. Ever see a Vette compaired to a 360 (or other similar comparison)? What is normally the outcome? The lower dollar car gets beat by the higher dollar one but it also points out what a terrific value the lower dollar car is.

If you don't think the event has merit, don't attend. But lets cut the crap, get it done and make our own call on the results.

Rick

[flipper35]

Kputz, I think that is what Richard was trying to do, just like how you said C&D does their test.

Rick, in the original thread it would be the same driver for all. Kinda hard to get a 'ringer' in there wouldn't you say?

I don't see what all the fuss is. If you are a mfr and feel you have a good product, show up. If you don't thinks it's worth it, don't.

Maybe Richard should have suggested the slalom, skid pad, and emergency lane change speeds as criteria. Na.