Cobra's Creator: Carroll Shelby Speaks Out

[Evan Harris]

Creeper:

You are not disagreeing with me nor I you. Read my post carefully.

Yeah. Your are right he MAY be too late. What was "then" may actually do the trade dress claim in. However, neither you or me will decide that. It will be decided on ALL the facts and the law as applied to ALL the facts by the Court and perhaps a jury. I don't think you or anyone else can fairly sum up ALL the facts in one sentence and slap a cliche on it and say SAI loses. But if thats how you feel thats OK. But it may not be as simple as that.

STG: Your right. At least some of the cross examination may go something like that. However, we don't know what Shelby did or did not do to object to the replicas being produced or when and what was said in response. Did he send letters requesting cease and desist. Did he advise some or all that he viewed their actions to infringe on trade dress short of actually suing at any time? If he did was it sufficient legally to preserve his rights under the law and was it timely enought? Don't know. You would need all these questions answered and probably more I haven't thought of and then research the law to formulate a valid legal opinion. I don't know the answer myself.

Speed Waxer.

[BT SNAKE]

OH man! she starting to boil now!
Hey Honey, bring me another beer. I'm gonna be here at the computer for a while. The fireworks starts any minute now!.
Bring some pop corn too babe.

Hersh

[mrmustang]

Evan,

At the time I posted the original article here (feel free to stop by the house, and I'll show you the original copy of the magazine), things were quited heated......The article was posted to quite down those who were most adamant on both sides of the equation. CS over the years (both before and after surgery) has made similar statements over and over and over, some published in magazine articles, others archived in video...yet the same feelings were always there.....it was not until after SAI started up production of their continuation cars that anyone ever considered a lawsuit....Those are the undisputed facts..............As for myself, my feelings are quite simple, A: Nobody wins in a lawsuit, and B: If it was not for SAAC and the replica companies out there(some dating back as early as 1972), the Cobra would have faded away, to be remembered as "just another neat old sports car"............Perhaps my original statement of the current costs of the lawsuit vs the $$$$$ amount of "world wide free press" on all parties involved holds true as well...........Crafty as it sounds, it makes some sense to all who sit back and think about it as well........



Yours in Fords,

Bill S.
Proud SAAC member since 1980/81

[creeper]

I read it very carefully and even quoted you. I was addressing that specific part
of your post. Maybe we just missed each others jist.

But it may not be as simple as that.

Then again it might be.


Drive up the cost of defense to force a settlement. A long
time successful pratice.. Right or wrong doesn't matter. If FFR and Superformance
have the fortitude to stick it out. There is long standing case law in their favor. Then of
course there are the appeals. Then appeal..... Then comes the settlement, what ole
Shell is probably looking for anyway... He wins, he loses.. He loses , he loses..

[Dan Semko]

OK,
where did that Wayne Stoker guy go. He puts the stick into the hornets nest, gives it a twirl and then leaves WITHOUT answering any questions. Come on Deacon,(Hippy) let Wayne back out of his office to answer some questions.....unless he's out sending my autographed large Shelby t-shirt, in which case, don't be messin with the boy!

DDS/The First Edition

[Turk]

This is good, really really good. Almost 1700 reads and no one is calling names, and everyone having an intelligent discussion. We must be behaving because Brent hasn't come in here and told us to "knock it off".

Let's see if we can keep it on the higher ground.
Some thoughts.

Evan
I frankly DON't get it!
You seem to be as passionate about this subject as anyone out there. Length of your posts will attest to it. It is not like you don't care.
Then you make a statement like, "the world would not come to cataclysmic end and life would go on for all of us even if that did happen. We would all eventually get over it (I think)."

That's hardly any reason to be indifferent about this matter.There are many events that don't bring about the end of the world, but many of us feel very strongly about them. I for one can't accept the fact that the world won't come to an end as my reason why not to care and not to dwell on this.

For many manufacturers the world would indeed come to an end.
I got mine, you got yours, I suppose we should move on.
For the 18-19-20 and up year old guys and gals who dream of having a car like yours and mine, indeed their Cobra dreams would come to an end.

You are not suggesting that if SPF stopped calling their cars "Cobras" and referred to them as Replica Cobras, this whole matter would be put to rest? Are you?
I doubt it. This is for keeps, not for some silly infringement.

Do you honestly think, if all manufacturers refrained from the use of the emblem, and made it very clear that theirs is a replica and not a real Cobra since NO REAL Cobras were manufactured for some 30 plus years... that Shelby would go away, and this matter would be put to rest.?

Get real! What did not bother the man for 30 years, all of a sudden is serious offense.
Why now? All the merits of the case were there for 30 years. Why look the other way for that long, and now it is the END OF THE WORLD.

What changed? Enter Venture. Someone blew smoke up someone's rear and convinced the money people if they do this and do that and invest a hefty sum they could sell zillion cars.
Didn't happen. Their business model was flawed. Series 1 did not fare any better either.

All there is left to do is to give it one more try. This time legally. They may win. I am not as confident as others on this board that the courts will rule in favor of the defendants.

What I do know for sure is my experience in the car business. If every replica manufacturer packed up and went away, and SAI was the only manufacturer out there the hobby the interest the rallies, Spring Flings, Run and Guns would die as well.
No more Enzo, no more Club Cobra, no more spare parts for those still stuck with one of these cars How is all this good for anyone?

You might think it is good for SAI. I would venture to guess, if everything I spelled out above was to happen I would kiss you &^*% if SAI sold 30 more cars a year. Not because the ERA owners SPF owners could not afford them. It would be due to lack of interest, due to ill will that would be around for years to come.

How does one convince SAI that they are better off with all the rest than they are all alone. If they were to become the only show in town, it would be curtains for them as well.

TURK

[STG]

Hersh,

You won't be able to call lap two with your mouth full!


By the way, if all the replica manufacturers are put out of business, will the 2002 Run and Gun become an all CSX4000 event? If so, would it take all weekend?


Stan

[BT SNAKE]

Stan,
I got butter all over the key board now! You gotta admitt this is
pretty good stuff.
You know...I have all those old mags in a big carboard box and
I went through then the other day. I saw the article that Bill
posted and I have a couple others that are even better. But I refuse to post them because of the controversy.The thing is that the lawyers on both sides are fully aware of these articles. They have surely formulated their stradegy for the hearing. There won't be any stones left unturned when this is over. I truley believe that by spring there will be an end to it. All the current makers of replicas will continue. They will more than likely strike a settlement. It will be mainly to compensate from here forward for the rights to produce the likeness of the roadster. All prior to that are not included. Kinda like what Harley Davidson did to
the Japanese bike makers on the unfair trade practices. This was enough to allow Harley to catch up and or be competitive.
I know ,I know it ain't the same but it really is in a way.
Now for me its not worth getting heated over because its out of our hands and what will be will be. You can only hope for an agreement that works for both sides. I think it will.

Your Orville Reddenbocker Buddy,
Hershal

[Tom T.]

STG--Thanks!

Hersh--Dang son, take your own whip hard!

Turk--I'm not a car salesman, and I'm very happy about it! (Actually, once retired from practice, maybe something along that line....) Do you know about the NorCal SAAC Mini-Nats that takes place at Sears Point over Labor Day weekend? The way your car looks so far, you'd have one hell of a fan club. Don't know if you belong to the club yet or not, but it's a great group of people. When I first bought my car, I had no intention of getting into track stuff, now it's three or four of the best weekends I have all year. Let me know if you'll be coming out, I'd like to meet you.

TT

[DaveSemko]

Here is a question to add a little 'Reality Check' to this thread...

How many people might have been saved if all these legal fees were put into medical research, and/or helping folks that cannot afford the high costs of medical care?

I wonder how many roadsters would have to be sold in order to raise the same amount of money as this lawsuit will cost the plaintiff alone?

These are rhetorical questions - I know - but it sure makes ya wonder about the priorities of some folks...

DDS (The Second Edition)

[Steve R]

Gents,
I think my response just blew Wayne away Thank you, thank you (bow).....now for my next trick.....
Steve R

[Turk]

Tom T.
I would like to come to the Sears Point. I may even drive my car up there. Last year I was there without a car spent better part of the afternoon visiting with few others who own the real Cobras. They were great. Answered questions, made small talk and one of them even sold me a set of his tires and two Trigos right in front of Lynn Parks.

I am pretty sure my car would be welcomed , I am not sure about me!

This is not a setup is it?You aren't going to key my car will you? Do I sound paranoid? Who me?

I would love to attend, and meet a few folks whom I had the pleasure of chatting and sparring with.

TURK

[Tom T.]

Turk,

Go to www.norcal-saac.org, and you can get some information and background on the club, and on Mini-Nats. If we don't see you there, hopefully we'll meet each other another time. If you do come on out, look for the red Contemporary, No. 147.

TT

[Tom T.]

I'll give it another shot:

http://www.norcal-saac.org/

TT

[wtcobra]

Fella's - lawsuits are decided based upon the law and the facts in any given case. My question is where are you guys getting your facts? Facts are not normally based upon hearsay or speculation, but upon the legal definition of personal knowledge or observation. You can speculate all you want obviously, but it is a fruitless undertaking, much like wishing. I am sure all of the parties to the litigation have been instructed not to discuss the facts of the case, which is standard advice. Certainly SA should not be discussing their case on this site anymore than Superformance or FFR should be revealing the facts that they will attempt to introduce at trial. This is the reason that it is unclear at this point whether SA and/or Ford timely pursued their claims against two cobra manufacturers that are relatively new to the hobby, as both FFR and Superformance are late bloomers in the hobby. In my opinion that may have been a consideration, why they were sued, as opposed to other manufacturers. It can be argued that Superformance and FFR did not contribute to the immense popularity afforded to the Cobra, but have reaped the benefit of a great many who went before them just as the original Shelby cars have done. It is obvious that SA has made attempts to enforce their perceived rights in the past. There are a number of cobra related companies that pay a royality to SA. Did SA waive their rights to bring a claim against ERA, Contemporary, Unique, etc., they may have, I don't know all the facts, and the folks that are privy to the facts are not discussing them and that is normal. Although I have been a trial lawyer, both criminal and civil , for longer than I care to admit, I am no expert in infringement cases. In my opinion, just because SA may have waived causes of actions against certain manufacturers doesn't mean they waived them to all manufacturers. You don't reckon the purchase of Contemporary by some sharp young guys on the East Coast, may turn out to be a much better deal than anticipated? I personally hope the judge orders all replicas be powered by FE's in the future; if you don't personally build your own replica or at least build or install your engine, you are subject to contempt of court charges, and all fines will be sent directly to the Shelby heart fund, and violators are not allowed to give advice to wannabees, or if they do, the fines are doubled.

Turk-do you want a garage or not?
wt

[Dan Semko]

wt,
For a Hoosier, you speak pretty well. Nice fluid thought pattern, good continuity and substance. You make us proud!
Now about those FE engines....

DDS/The First Edition

Turk, are you catching any of this? See how those folks in the southern portion of the state (closer to those moonshine runners)
think?

[Evan Harris]

Turk:

I am not indifferent on the subject and by reading my posts you can see that. But if SAI wins the world will not end. Life will go on even for those unable to get replicas. Even those in the replica industry will go on to something else. They will have to. You know that. I have stated my opinions on what I would like to see as an outcome and my opinions as to whether I think Shelby is justified. No need to repeat.

Understand that while my passion for the hobby is a match for yours, it is still a hobby to me and for most of us. The Replica makers are not in the business because they love us or like us. They are in it for the money. Its is big business. Otherwise they never would have got in it to begin with. I am sure they knew the potential risk of copying one of the most famous cars of all time.

You are assuming that Shelby did nothing to protect the trade dress rights at any time. This is not what I understand as I have said before in my posts.What Shelby did or did not do years ago may or may not be sufficient. I don't know. We do not (none of us here) have ALL the facts. Wt Cobra is right. I have said the same.

Yes I do agree that business interests involving Venture did finally cause the suits to be intiated. But the question is whether it is now too late. Again, don't know. Need all the facts.

You know, you are assuming that SAI is rebuffing or would rebuff any efforts at a compromise. You may be right. But it is also possible in light of the replica industries rebuff of Shelby's approaches years ago and SPF's counter-claim that the Replica industry is rebuffing settlement and taking an all or nothing approach. I don't know the answer to this and neither to you.

As far as spare parts. Don't worry. Most of the replicas are made with parts manufactured by other car companies. Most parts would continue to be readily available. Even parts not available could be fabricated. But I think you already know this.

Whether SAI would be doing the right thing if they got to chop up the molds. As I said, I don't think so. But if thats what they do if they win that is their business decision. They may be right business wise or they may be wrong but thats their decision not ours whether we agree with it or like it or not.

If they win and chop up the molds we will still be around to have that drink. I'll buy.

Speed Waxer.

[mr bruce]

Boys, Just go check out the case I refered you to,see for yourself. case closed,.

[Evan Harris]

Mr. Bruce:

Precedent is only controlling where the facts are the same or close enough to apply precedent. We don't have ALL the facts in the SAI litigation. If you do please enlighten us.

Speed Waxer.

[mr bruce]

Sorry,Mr E, on the advice of council I can no longer continue this playfull banter.Let the chips(or fibreglass shards) fall where they may.