kit/project purchase

[avanti-176]

Drag coefficiant...

Bmw M5 = .31 +/-
Shelby 427 Cobra =.42 +/-

Dug this up in one of my old schoolbooks...

Thrust

Thrust is the force that is provided by the engines of the airplane and moves the airplane forward through the air. The engine provides power to the propeller (or the axial-flow fan in a turbofan or jet engine) which then displaces a large mass of air backward. This displacement of air develops the forward thrust that carries the aircraft through the air. Horsepower is the measure of force most commonly associated with engines, and requirements increase as a function of velocity cubed. In other words, to go twice as fast, you need eight times as much horsepower. Thrust is balanced by frictional forces (drag) when an airplane is in straight and level flight. When the force of thrust is greater than that of drag, the aircraft accelerates until drag force again equals the thrust force at which time the aircraft ceases to accelerate and continues at a constant speed.

Drag

Drag is the term given to the force which is caused by the air particles striking and flowing around the airplane as it moves through the air. Aside from lift, drag is the most important force which acts upon the wing of airplanes. As the speed of the airplane increases, drag increases proportionally to the square of the velocity. In other words, if you go twice as fast, the drag is four times greater. Drag is balanced by thrust when an airplane is in straight and level flight. When the force of drag is greater than the thrust force, the airplane will decelerate until the thrust force equals the drag force again at which point the aircraft ceases to decelerate and continues at a constant speed.

...now I realize that this is pertaining to airplanes but it is also realative to cars for the most part .

RallyRacer,
I am not trying to bust your balls or offend you,I am just trying to make the point that Cobras are not very aerodynamic and that DRAG plays a HUGE roll in making a car be stable and go fast.
The thing that is most fun about Cobras is because of the power to weight ratio...Like motorcycles(which are also not very aerodynamic) Cobras ACCELERATE LIKE CRAZY.........

Have a good one,
Dan

Lineslinger, Sorry I HI-Jacked your thread, for 35-40k you and your son will be able to put together a VERRRY nice Cobra. And believe me it will be as close to the thrill of your motorcycle as you will be able to find on four wheels now get crackin'.

[RACERAL]

Question no. 1 How much do you want to put into it , in dollars.. that helps alot.. and eliminates a lot of cars

[wadesdad]

Lineslinger,

Decide what components you want on your car, and how much labor you wish to invest. It will help you narrow the field.

I fell in love with Antique & Collectibles gel coat which eliminated the need for any body work at all. It allowed me to focus on the car parts and wiring. They are smaller supplier, but well worth considering.

I would also suggest you personally visit with the owners of as many different cars as possible and ask the guys who built them to give you the pros and cons of their build and manufacturer.

Finally, build what works for you and your family, not someone else's dream car.

[RallyRacer]

Ok, so to eliminate some drag, I chop the windshield some... hehehe.. []

[bobl]

190MPH..... really?

2001 BMW M5

Base Price: MSRP) $69,400
Price as tested: est $72,070
Drivetrain layout: Front engine / rear wheel drive
Engine type: 5.0-liter V8
Horsepower: hp @ rpm, 394 hp @ 6600 rpm
Torque: lb-ft @ rpm,368 lb.-ft. @ 3800 rpm
Suspension: f/r MacPherson struts, coil springs, anti-roll bar/multi link, coil springs, anti-roll bar
Steering type: "M Servotronic" speed-sensitive power steering
Brakes: f/r disc/ disc/ABS
Weight: 4024 lbs
Length: in./ 188
Width: in./ 70.9
Height: in./ 55.6 in
Transmission: six-speed manual


Performance Data:

Acceleration: sec, 0-60 mph 4.8 seconds
Standing quarter mile: 13.3 seconds at 108 mph.
Top Speed: electronically limited to 155 mph
Braking: 60-0 mph, N/A
Lateral acceleration: g,0.N/A
EPA fuel economy: mpg, 13/21 mpg city/hwy

I took the liberty of posting some M5 specs. Let's consider a thing or two....shall we? Weight 4,024 lbs with 394 HP. Last I checked, that's 10.1:1 lbs/hp. "top speed electronically limited at 155". 10.1:1 with some GREAT aerodynamics should get you to 150-160. So where is the other 30+ MPH to reach 190 coming from?

Do you have ANY idea of the asymptotic relationship of power to speed when 29.98 millibar air begins to compress? Especially with a drag coefficent of ...someone mentioned .42? An ogive ballistic coefficeint of .5 might get you 190 with 394 HP.... but the only way youre going to get there with a 394HP M5 powertrain is to be at 25,000 feet. And there's no oxygen system in the car - so that's out. Speaking of that, have you ever been in an automobile at 190MPH? I'd venture to say no one else on CC has been. I certainly haven't and never plan on even accidentally find myself trying to get there. If 155 won't do it... get a multi engine instrument rating. You'll live longer.

It's tense enough coming over the roundown on final at 140.... much less some wacked out fool on the Autobahn trying to play Dan Gurney... trust me.

160 - reachable but very tense. 180 - very, very difficult as LBS/HP should be at or below 4.0 at the rear wheels with at least 6,000 RPM and a rear end down around 3.0. 190 - I dont think you can get there from here.

Just my .02 worth and, oh, is it 14.69 lbs/in2...or is it that pi thing?

[bobl]

Sorry.....got wound up in math. Thats 1000 millibars - not 29.98. And, Lineslinger, as I posted before - jump the Amtrak with your son ( max 78 mph ) and come on over to KC.

We will put you in a 4.6L blown 289 Hybrid that's as fast as ANYTHING around. We'll show you 135 in THIRD gear and that's no pipedream, and the car will get you there so quickly you might begin to get woozy from the G's - and thats no BS either. Two guys have greyed out in the passenger seat. I'm one of them. If you really want to go faster, you're one brave soul.

This coming spring, when the pavement gets warm and we get rid of the Pilot Sports for the new F-1D Eagles AND we change the rear end to properly gear the car, it will REALLY be fast. Of course there's the second generation we now have - and its triple intercooled where Mod 1 is running ambient + some ....

Waaaaaaahooooooooooo!! Slap your cousin and hang on, Nelly! This car can be fun....it can be exilerating....it can be breathtaking....or it can be absolutely TERRIFYING. Come see us. Let us take you for a ride! Then you decide how big the car's cajones need to be for a match.

[RallyRacer]

Yeah 190 mph in the BMW M5 that competed in the 2003 Gumball 3000. The car dressed up with Polizei (Police) on the side. There are pictures of their speedometer to prove it too. The car was vibrating so badly though that they couldn't get a super clear picture, but you can see the speedo clearly on all the shots of 130, 140, 161 and then at 180ish it starts to get blurry and at 190 a tiny bit worse but you can see the needle reading.

"190+ MPH - The Polizei M5 is now neck in neck with the Ferrari F50 and Rob's Silver Porsche GT2".

[RallyRacer]

Here you go: Team 144

http://www.team144.com/pages/3/index.htm

Here's the speedometer photo page:

http://www.team144.com/pages/10/index.htm

[rdorman]

Originally posted by RallyRacer


Ok, so to eliminate some drag, I chop the windshield some... hehehe.. []

Just take it off! Lets not forget lift! Seems to me the stock Cobra has 80+ pounds of lift at 80MPH on the front! At 190 that would be.......umm, scary! I seem to recall some talk about when speeds approaching this where obtained back in the day that the front tires skipped along the ground because of so much lift!!!!

Sure you could do 190 in a prepared Cobra. I'll watch

Any ways, we are way off topic. No surprise there is it?

Rick

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by rdorman




Any ways, we are way off topic. No surprise there is it?

Rick

Not when you're involved in a thread

And by the way, see my signature line

[rdorman]

Originally posted by Chaplin


Not when you're involved in a thread

And by the way, see my signature line

Unfounded rumor

By the way, I am working! This is in my job description!

Rick

[rdorman]

Originally posted by lineslinger


My time on this project is not really limited by anything other than sticking with it. If it takes two years, so be it. My budget is 35-40 k for a completed project. Desired use would be basic cruising along with some brutal acceleration. I haven't gotten to expereince that since my wife made me ditch my motorcycles.

If you are going to do EVERYTHING yourself (motor build, paint, etc) there are a number manufacturers to choose from for that price range.

So am I correct in that you want to do basically everything and build it from the ground up?

Couple of thoughts. For what you mention the intended you could go with a live rear axle. Save some bucks and put the power to the ground better. I would think you would look at a mild big block for the motor (check with fitment issues with each manufacterer). If you do not want to do a bunch of parts chasing look for on of the 'roller' type cars such as Unique. While the car comes 'assembled' you still have to pull it apart. I am sure you could order it unassembled as well. Factory Five has a good car that will make the budget a little easier to hit and generally uses a live axle (Unique is IRS).

Some others that come to mind are Shell Valley, Emerson, Midstates, Classic Roadsters etc. Look in the manufacturers section and you can talk to other owners, read about their experience and event talk to the manufacturer themselves. Depending on how frugal you are, you should be able to finish any one of these cars in the range you specified. When you start going for the most accurate, option them out, best of everything, you can blow right through your budget on any one of these cars.

Question for the group, any one EVER finish an ERA in this price range?

Take some time, talk to the folks here, talk to the manufacturers, refine the list of desired cars, visit the manufacturer if you can, SEE and ride (maybe drive) them in person if at all possible.

If you can wait till June, come to Columbus Ohio and you will see about 300 from every manufacturer on the planet side by side. Lots of seat time opportunity as well.

Rick

[lineslinger]

Did you guys ever hear about the two drunk guys that put a JADO rocket booster in the trunk of their Impala and lit it? I "read" that it took the highway patrol a long time to figure out what that blob was 300' up on the cliff where the road turned left and they went straight.

[rdorman]

Originally posted by lineslinger


Did you guys ever hear about the two drunk guys that put a JADO rocket booster in the trunk of their Impala and lit it? I "read" that it took the highway patrol a long time to figure out what that blob was 300' up on the cliff where the road turned left and they went straight.

Did you ever see the TV show 'mythbusters'? They actually did that.

Rick

[lineslinger]

rdorman,
Thanks for the advice. Seems to me I really need to actually look at fellow members projects and keep asking questions.

[rdorman]

It is a pretty big chunk of change. Most folks that jump in seem to change there mind later and end of spending more than needed. If you haven't bought by June, you must come to Columbus!
Rick

[Tony Ripepi]

Hello Lineslinger,

You thoughts on a project for the family with you and your children are great.....I grew up with a father and Uncles that built in me the fire to always have a project and the skills to execute.

As for your thoughts on a Cobra and then the high speed aspects that have been mentioned.....Pete Brock and Bob bondurant faced that issue in the 60's.

Voila...

http://www.factoryfive.com/table/ffr.../coupekit.html

The Daytona coupe....FFR's rendition expands the size a bit and gives you the formula Shelby started with and still endorses today...Small light package, Big Motor. This will not break the bank and will give you the project you were looking for. The Coupe is a more difficult build than the FFR roadster but, there is a support group of builders and the knowledge base is building up to where the FFR roadsters are.

http://www.ffcobra.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=5


This link will take you to the FFR Type 65 Coupe forum.

Enjoy the decision and the project,

Tony R.

[RallyRacer]

Factory Five has a nice set up. The only thing I don't like about them is that when you're done, you basically have a Mustang that looks like a Cobra. It uses all it's parts from a donor Mustang GT 5.0.

Myself of course I want a big block, and am going to look around to companies that I can fit a big 514 in... hehehe

[Alan DD]

Factory Five does use the Mustang as a donor concept, however you can also do a Non Donor build and the drivetrain options are as broad as any other kit here.

[Tony Ripepi]

Rally Racer,

Take a look in my pictures and you will see a FFR Daytona with a 418 cu. in. 540 HP/580 lb. ft Torque motor that will run away from 460/514 cu. in SPF's all day long and the top end will have them watching the rear end recede out into the sun.....as they hit the wind wall at 150.

No Donor parts in the build. There a lot of the FFR Roadsters that are also built with no donor components and the 460/514 will work just fine in their chassis. I've seen one with the TWM intake on a 460 and it looks right at home between the frame rails. The big block will not work in the Coupe due the low height of the hood unless somerbody wanted to massage the hood to make room

Name your poison....to each their own.

Tony R.