Did the Cobra exist before Carroll Shelby visited AC?

[REAL 1]

It was claimed by another "member" on the "CS Muckracker" thread which he began that the Cobra existed before CS.

Seems revisionist history at its pinnacle.

But is this true? Hmmm. What is the factual support for this claim beyond the fact that the Cobra utilized the Ace chasis and body exists?

I'm not talking about the "Cobra" as an idea. Clearly the Allard is an example of American V8 power in a small chasis predating the Cobra. The question is did the Cobra itself as we know it exist before CS?

Wheres the proof, facts and references.

No nonsenical vitriolic insults which mean nothing.

Just the facts, please. Thank you.

[wilf leek]

All the history I have absorbed indicates that CS created the Cobra, using the AC car and the then new ford sb as a basis.

I find myself in agreement with you, Evan. Whatever next?

[computerworks]

Originally posted by REAL 1


It was claimed ... that the Cobra existed before CS.

No....kinda.

The car called a Cobra was named by CS.

The cars made by AC that immediately preceded the Cobra project were the Ace Bristol and the Ace Ford/Ruddspeed.

When you look at the 2.6L Ruddpeed..the exterior is about a dead-ringer for the first generation of Cobras... but it was still an AC-named product... Ace.

[John McMahon]

What Ron said...

Lookee here, pretty darn close to the car that became a legend.






Consider is similar to Linda Tripp before and after plastic surgery!

[Excaliber]

Nose opening flat on the bottom. Hmmm, kinda like the new Ford Cobra?

Ernie

EDIT:
Personally I don't believe for a second the Cobra, as we know it, including it's rich race history, would have ever come about without Shelby. It seems rather preposterous that AC would have been able to acquire a V8 from anybody considering their financial position at the time (broke and going down hard). Having lost their engine supplier at the time and now left with a body with no heart they would have been happy with ANY engine supplier who stepped forward!

[REAL 1]

Like I said. We are all aware of the Ace platform and body. Yeah it looked like the Cobra because it was the platform for the Cobra.

The claim was specifically made that the "Cobra" existed before CS and exists after him.

If I remember correctly I think the "Definitive Timeline" even asserts AC was working on the "Cobra" before CS even had the idea.

Wheres the proof and facts. Thats all.

[avanti-176]

Only in FORM.......


Have a good one,
Dan

[Hal Copple]

there have been any number of new, innovative designs that about broke their manufactureror at least brought ridicule. Like the '36 Chrysler Aero, the hideous early Consiliers, the Axtec, and others.

I have no problem with Evan pointing out to the rest of us that the "Cobra" was CS's iteration of the AC.

But while i think the 289 and FIA cars have the most handsome of all the snouts of the Cobra cars, even more so than the S/C's, if AC had shipped over this nose on their bodies to CS to install motors, would the world, and us, think that Cobra's are so incredibly handsome, even after 40 years?

The nose on John's pic above is pretty obnoxious, but the more oval one on the Cobra's is vastly more handsome. Whoever decided to pound on the front aluminum sure did the right thing.

John's pic of the AC sure shows (to me) a humble, homely car. Nothing something to build a legend on.

[computerworks]

Hal... the last Ace, the Ruddspeed, had a front opening very much the shape of the 289 Cobra...

(looking for a head-on pic, for later)

AC 2.6 Ruddspeed in 1961

[Dan Stryffeler]

How could the "Cobra" exist before Shelby... he named it?

The "Cobra" can, and probably will exist after Shelby, because he sold the rights to the name.

If Ford wants to slap the name on an imported rice-rocket, than that car will be a "Cobra", (not that they would do something like that, but...)

- Dan

[petek]

Beauty of the AC Ace + power & dependability of the Ford V8 + hot rod engineering of the folks Shelby had working for him + Shelby's drive to make it all work together = Cobra.

[Tom T.]

Would someone please take this dead horse and bury it?

TT

[acaskie]

Ron is absolutely correct. The body for the last version of the Ace differs from the 289 Cobra only in they were missing the flat flare of the slabside wheel well. Those were added, presumably based on discussions between CS and the boys at Thames-Ditton, to accomodate what were going to be six inch wide wire wheels to hold wider rubber, rather than the Ace's 5-inchers. The front clip, however, was not changed. The pretty small-block Cobra shape is pure AC.

[Steve Cassani]

Another take on the 'before-after' issue...

AC manufactured and sold cars in Europe concurrent with shipping bodies and frames to Shelby's shop in California. The sales directly from AC involved complete cars: 260's, 289's and, later, 427's and 302's in what we recognize to be a 427 chassis and body style. Direct sales by AC continued, under a variety of ownerships, well after Shelby's 'fire sale' in 1968. If I recall correctly, AC supplied Cobras with their own ('AC') emblem on the hood; only the cars delivered to customers through Shelby dealerships in the States carried the snake image.

Shelby stopped the final manufacture and sales of Cobras due in part to the effect of an increasingly stringent regulatory setting that affected all motor vehicles manufactured and sold in the US and all imports. The possibility of evading the applicable regulations through private manufacture was available to Shelby when he went out of business in the late sixties. I suspect this option did not appleal to him at the time, likley for reasons involving his contracts with Ford and his dealers. Certainly, 'Ol Shel has since seen the light and now we have the opportunity to purchase cars manufactured from parts that were in inventory in the late sixties, so long as we, the purchasers, are responsible for completing assembly.

I believe a case can be made for saying Shelby and AC worked in harmony but AC, since Ford was willing to supply engines in support to overseas sales, enjoyed a measure on independence that was not possible for Shelby. The regulatory climate was different in Europe and AC had the advantage of continuing production, under its own name, long after Shelby American had gone out of business.

[Tom Kirkham]

A car that is very close to the original Cobra is the Corvace. It had a small block Chevy and an AC body. Their is a picture of the car racing in the same event that Carroll Shelby was racing a Maserati. You can do a search on this sight for Corvace. Something to keep in mind is that Shelby American, Ford and AC spent a lot of time, sweat, and money developing the Cobra to make it the world beater that it turned out to be.

[Russ Dickey]

The answer is emphatically "NO!". Because I work in the product development and licensing business, I can tell you that when you take two existing licensed products, change it slightly and combine them into your own product, and re-sell it, you have created a new product.

Regardless of the fact that he didn't design the original AC body, nor did he design the Ford engines that went into them, the mere fact that he combined them into one makes him the CREATOR of an all new product. In addition, he made significant changes to the original AC body. The flares, grill openings, and hood scoops may not be much to some of you guys, but I can assure you that they are considered significant in the industry.

In my opinion, he got screwed in his lawsuit case. Because of my affiliations with NASCAR, I know the ins and outs of licensing, royalties, and product development with racing teams. If I take an exisiting Dale Earnhardt Jr. product, combine it with an existing Jeff Gordon product, throw in a display case of my own design, and market it under my company's name, guess what? I owe Jeff money, I owe Dale Jr. money, and the law considers my "set" to be an all new product. Regardless of the fact that the royalties had already been paid on the two existing items.

Once I pay those royalties, then I can legally protect my new "set" against others who might try to copy my idea, even though it contains two pre-existing products that anybody could go and obtain for themselves. I think where Shelby lost out was the fact that he waited so long to protect what was rightfully his.

I truly believe that the replica companies owe Shelby some sort of royalty or licensing fee. They are making money off of a car he designed and built. So what that he took a while to ask for his share? The Cobra, and it's likeness, belongs to him and he deserves a cut.

In fact (and this will blow your mind), if Shelby came out to replica owners and said, "I'll give you an official CSX number, and endorse your car as a Cobra, if you just pay me the industry standard of a 6% licensing fee (based on the original cost of your car or kit)", I'd do it. My deluxe pallet kit cost about $19K, so that would be about $1140, and I'd pay it. Why? Because it's the right thing to do.

Russ

P.S. How long do you think it will take before this thread gets locked??????

edit for spelling errors

[Super-Snake]

How about a Big Mac?

or The Whopper?

or the Extra Value Meal

or the Super-Size

or the Biggie at wendy's

or the white castle?

mmmmmmm..white castle.

[Johan]

"Did the Cobra exist before Carroll Shelby visited AC?"

No, the visit to AC was required first.

"Did the Cobra exist after Shelby stopped making them in the 60's?"

Yes, AC continued to make cars (for decades) that were legally and factually Cobras, and real Cobras are being made today by the man himself(for whom I have the greatest respect , especially after watching him do those burnouts the other night on TV).

"Who do you think is the most likely forum member to be seen around town wearing one of those "Mexican Tap-dancer / witch hats" that Mr. Shelby was sporting the other night on that "Unveiling the new Cobra show?"

I REALLY don't know, or at least I hope I'm wrong.

[Super-Snake]

i know. i know.

i am just bored since i am waiting to download some large email files on my slow dsl.

[Ken Oikawa]