Britain's "remarkable automotive cottage industry"

[BMK]

Trev289



You have obviously seen some great racing with a ringside seat.

Must say I enjoyed "Cobra - The real thing"

I used the b/w photo on the first page as a guide to set my screen.. Also used the side elevations in the spec. section for my hood bow angles (Page 261). Read cover to cover..

As has already been said - I'm enjoying the Cobra after a number of street rods and show cars.

I don't get excited about the issues that come up here regarding replicas and real or what we have in our garages..

I just drive my car like I just stole it and hell if I bend it, it owes me 1/20th of a real Cobra. (Now I'm not saying I wouldn't like a real one in my garage.)



Cheers

Bernie

Cruising in the summer sun.

[Trevor Legate]

Cheers & g'day Bernie. No compliments refused.....

Can I just say that your comments underline the reason why I have included the kit cars/replicas etc in my books. I had a few negative comments from a few stuffy UK journalists who felt that such vehicles had no place in my book. I disagree for precisely your reasons - the original cars opened up a world of motoring for thousands of people and the evil replicants are as relevant to the overall story as are all the "new" Shelby and AC variants. Its a shame that the genuine article became so valuable. Had they not, all this nonsense and handbag waving would never had happened. Just carry on enjoying what you've got and sod what anyone else thinks.

I think your "cruising in the summer sun" is a little cruel. Its a bright sunny day here (at last) but with a wind coming straight down from the Arctic, thank you very much.

[What'saCobra?]

Tommy K:
I will take a few pics and send. We have met. I visited you two summers ago on the way back from Seattle after dropping off my Crossle 15F, had a trailer attached, bot a sway bar and speedometer. Your stuff is the best...hands down...and your engineered bits are even better. My to do list includes one of your cars one day.

Clay:
Yet the Cub was lots of fun. Any taildragger is because that's the way the Good Lord inspired the first designers, before the chicken-hearted wanted a wheel on the nose. Imagine trying to land a Robin Reliant at high speed!

Bernie:
Nice to talk to someone from the back of bourke. Your pics look like bottler and you have earned the right to be clucky about her. Definately my bowl of rice.

Will copy brake bits. This thread's got some nice poms lurking about it and they have contributed well and nicely and encouraged a bit of partie without being an earbashing and that's just crackers to me.

Sink some cold piss and plonk for me down there, but don't go rotten about it.

Trev:
There is no such thing as too much information that's interesting and well said. That's the fun of it, mate. There are no tight posting length limitations here, so we are free to fire away at will and be read or not as the reader pleases.

Some of these guys respect their elders and the very few that don't are cool and wish to learn another way.

Our equipent list crosses again. My first "sports car" was also a Sprite...a stage V motor from the factory and sort of a Sebring Sprite w/o the secial nose. I think it had about 70hp or so. I sold my Chrysler 300 for it because I wanted to experience the "purity" of a good handling machine, if miniscule.

I could go down the New England country roads much quicker in the Sprite, of course, despite the 300's monster engine and fantastic TorqueFlite 3 speed auto. The Sprite didn't need a lot of braking like the Big C, since you could carry on through the curvy bits at will. Loads of laughs and no off-roading, thank you, because of the very very low exhaust system, which was very expensive and rotted out each year (or less!) for replacement. The special two pipe exhaust was particularly priceey...

That stinkin' Sprite took much of my abuse, thank you very much. I would speed shift it, having gotten used to the very quick and hard shifts of the Big C autobox. The twin SU's required a bit of tuneup from time to time, but otherwise the car was great. It taught me the importance of good handling over power, but I yearned for something with both until 1963 and my first Cobra.

Sort of a dream come true. I couldn't believe how fantastic it was and I still salivate today when I see any on the road. It is a real iconoclast's car, to be sure and has all the elements of a dream sequence in the flesh.

Of course, the transmission failed from my abuse and I eventually bot out my local (80 miles away!) BMC dealer's stock of clutches, which made him rich and happy.

I lived in northern NH, so the roads were most kindly and appropriate for a hot Sprite. But, it was only hot in the summer, because the heater/demister didn't either heat or demist in the Winter.

But, I also had a very used Saab 99 which put EVERYBODY to shame on the snowy and icy roads. With a heater that put out lot's more heat than my girlfriend at the time, I seem to recall. No matter, the car's all made up for all that stuff.

The 99 taught me the importance of managing body roll or lean, particularly in the transition from left to right (or versa visa) in the tight and twisties.

But the front wheel drive made it the best on ice...I only found one car ever to match it...and that was a Volkswagon 412 wagon, would you believe? The 412 was roomy, very high underbody clearance, light, big sindow visibility, gasoline heater (at last!), deep displacement McPherson suspension designed by Porche and 100 real fuel injected horsepower flat four mounted like any pukka VW just behind the rear wheels. It was fantastic, no kidding. The underbody was a smooth pan, so you could punch a high drift at speed and sail, skid over the top and land with lots of traction and power.

Imagine the reaction of the oncoming old fharters when they saw this gold 412 coming around the corners at them with a 20 to 30 degree yaw angle, throwing snow and ice to the outside of the turn..

Of course, you had to have Michelin X's, nothing else would do. I have had something with X's or their later versions since the '59 Sprite. But, later the carbide tipped Semperits were another upgrade for winter and the car was even better than in the dry.

Like the Finns, living in northern New England did provide good practice every day just going to work.

Much later in life, I worked in Russia for about 10 years, before, during and after the revolution; which has the same weather and even worse roads, since road salt had not been invented by the proleteriat. I used to drive Lada's the same way and none of my few fellow Americans would ride with me if the weather was icy, because they could see my drooling anxiety to get with it and they would find other things to do. But, the local Ruskies and Finns thought it was a blast and were properly impressed with both the yaw angles and driving attitudes, both the car's and mine.

I always wanted to drive a Cobra in Russia, but the cost and inconvenience was difficult to overcome. But, someday I will tell you about the first post-war seaplane flight from Helsinki harbor to Tallin harbor (Estonia was still a Soviet Republic at the time) I organized with a great pal and piloted with a Cessna 180B.

Yet another crossed path car and driver...I spent a year driving John Woolfe's 1968/9 McLaren M6B Chassis# 50/16 in International SuperSports. That's how I know your ag pilot. Woolfe was a champion for sure, though I never met him, much to my regret. His 917 catastrophe was most sincerely regrettable and a bloody waste to us and his family. The 917 didn't deserve his skills as it was so lousy at the beginning.

Airplanes and cars get re-engineered at the sight of good men's blood. We lost so much when Ken Miles went missing from the Shelby American group. The Cobras have eaten their own fair share of the hearts of our champions. It is the nature of both man, macnine and material progress.

[What'saCobra?]

Sorry about the spelling. Replacing errored copy with good in this reply space doesn't seem to work. Must be a bug?

[Trevor Legate]

Whatsa Cobra
Amen to all the above. Do NOT get me started on my rally exploits with my Sprite (my first car) or I will create a record posting. Three years of utter madness but boy, did I learn about roadholding and how to get a car round a corner. Many years later I was informed that I was deemed certifiable by those who observed my antics but I could do just about anything with that car and never crashed. (Always in control, officer....)Well, not seriously. I blew 3 engines, 2 gearboxes, wore all the splines off the propshaft (with revs and speedo off the clock, going round the second time) and caught fire once but I always drove it home. I could whip the engine and box out in an hour and a half on my own with one trolley jack and slap in another and be back at work on Monday. Drove all over the UK, hardly ever put the roof up (torrential rain only) and was classified in the top 10 on dozens of rallies around southern England. All it lacked was power - just as well or would not be here now!
The car was sold to a friend, restored and I brought it back but it felt totally different, the handling was wrecked. Sold it to a collector in Rome and I hope its happy.

Agree also on the Saab front - in my case a 900 turbo. Deceptively swift motoring. My only concern arrived when I was overtaking a very large lorry uphill in a ball of spray and the front tyres lost contact with planet earth. Not good. Great for all day cruising at 120mph - actually they were crap at lower speeds as the interior suffered body-boom, caused, i discovered, from the lack of a prop-shaft. Ultra-quiet at 110. Iffy electrics.

Also go along with the Lada - my sister owned one. Loads of cheap laughs, the more snow the better.

Our senior motoring journalist, Jeremy Clarkson recently tested the new Fiat Panda (bear with me) and declared it one of the best cars he had ever driven. It handled!!!! It got him to his Cotswold home, driving past sranded Range Rovers, in a recent snowy spell. For a whole week, he left his AMG-Mercedes SL and Volvo XC90 and jumped into the Panda, simply because it was fun. As he pointed out, if you did run out of road and crash - no problem , because you'd only be doing 24mph at the time.
Not to say there is anything wrong with Lots of power - I was driving a CAV GT40 recently- oh yes and the Gardner Douglas Lola T70 repica with Corvette power, no windscreen, no weight..........oh dear here I go again! And the wife wants to go shopping so I'm off

[PDHse]

Rallysnake, the Cobra 289 was entered in a rally in 1963. It was the Tour De Corsica Rally, tarmac i think. The Car was CSX2142(Ed Hugas car Le Mans 63) and it was driven by Jo Schlesser/ Vanson to 2nd overall. 1st place went to Rene Trautmann/ Alex Chabert in a Citroen DS19. In the book i have in front of me it also states that Schlesser drove a Cobra to 1st place with Jaques Greder in the Rally De Lorraine in 1965.

[Trevor Legate]

While I was writing my reply on the subject of rallying, there was something nagging away in the back of my mind - I should have remembered the history of 2142, since it recently returned to the UK and I was searching its details on behalf of Kevin Kivlochan. Must have had a "geriatric moment". (Car since sold to Frank Sytner - anyone heard of it since??)
It also took part in the Rallye de Limousin, but these were all European smooth tarmac events. I had the major world championship events in mind. (Good excuse)
On the matter of strange events tackled by Cobras, I have photos in my book of COB6025 tackling a Production Car Trial in Sussex, where cars had to ascend steep muddy hills in an effort to reach the top - mostly undertaking by lightweight specials such as Cannons. Possibly a first and last for a Cobra. The owner, Martin Hilton also took part shortly afterwards in an autotest, handbraking around bollards and hurtling in and out of 'garages'. Not a Cobra event and he struggled as I recall - too much power (and I beat him!)

I also have photographs of a white 289 MkII at the Brighton Speed Trials in 1968, sporting some serious Cibie spotlights. I believe the owner had taken part in a few club road rallies, but I never witnessed the events. Pity.

[What'saCobra?]

NO, no, Trevor, he didn't have too much power, he had too much FOOT!

He didn't have to push all the way down on that thingy on the far right pedal...it's not a cucaracha to be squashed to death, it's a throttle, to be fine tuned, especially on the ice or otherwise at the limit of adhesion.

The car will balance on partial throttle with the best, but practice and seat time...and skill...and proper attitude...and finesse...

Like skiing, he should have carved the corners, even in a gymkanna. Full throttle just upsets the balance, makes lots of attractive noise ("officer, he must have been doing 100 mph!"), burns gas and tires and also scares the horses and small ankle biters.

OK, I admit that is not such a problem with a Sprite...an on off switch would be fully functional for a throttle.

He should have known, don't slam on the brakes and upset the balance and lock the fronts or the rears in the wet, first firm placement, let the nose take a set and raise the pressure smoothly to keep the grip...same with the throttle or the bottle.

But, isn't it grand when you really have enough throttle? I am not sure, since I have never had enough, except on ice and rain.

For instance, my first run with Woolfe's M6B was in the rain at Monza. Yikes! I did pretty good and have some cool pix, but I was seriously concerned. Several of the experts lost it in the kitty litter in the second chicane, which was more tricky, I thought, than the first. The first (variante del Rettifilo), now highly modified and in some ways easier, was obviously very, very hairy and everyone was cautious. The second (Variante della Roggia), approached at a higher speed out of a lightning fast right turn (Curva Grande), was more threatening because of its beneign appearance. I think I finished 3rd? First time at speed in the seat?

That day, I had enough power...

Hey, they didn't need to feel bad, because that's where Mikka Hakkinen spun in the 1998 GP and it was raining like democratic tax increases when we ran at the beginning of the SSI season.

Gotta go, back soon...

[RallySnake]

PDHse,

Thanks for the information. Is that a book that can be purchased these days?

Trevor and What'saCobra,

I drove a Sprite between Buckingham and London on many occasions. My car was a later Mk3. I chased the RAC rally cars a couple of times with it too. I remember that it was a very difficult car to have any fun with your "bird", though! My Morris Traveller was much better for that. I did run and win an Gymkhana on the old RAF Upper Heyford runway with it, though.

Paul

[Mark IV]

..a friends "Bugeye" (Frogeye in Jolly olde) and the technique was to hold the pedal to the floor and use the gearbox to control the speed.

Driving an underpowered car can be lots of fun 'cause you are going balls-out all the time even if you aren't goin' very fast. Maybe a good excuse for a diesel Cobra?

In my youth I had friends buy such fun cars as a twin-cam MGA for a whopping $200.00, a Porsche 356 coupe for $100.00 (blown motor, he installed a 412 motor with fuel injection and drove away...

I turned down a Ferrari GTB longnose for $5500.00 cause the clutch was "little weak"...(plus the fact I didn't have $5500...)

And didn't buy CSX3327 due to the fear of the $70.00 monthly payment that I needed to make up the difference in my cash posistion...and that was a 24 month loan!! Not todays 60-72-84 month stuff!

Ah, to be young and stupid

Rick

[PDHse]

Rallysnake, Hi. The book i got the Jo Schlesser info from is called AC Cobra 260-289-427 by Philippe Hazan. It was published in 1984 by EPA. Its in french and i can,t read french, shame really because i see there is a couple of pages which mentions John Frankenheimer, the film Grand PRIX, Cobra 427 all in the same paragraph. Did they use a cobra for a camera car i wonder.
Anyway im afraid i,ve never seen another copy of this book. I did a straight swap at an autojumble with my "Automobile year book of dream cars". Lots of pictures i,ve never seen in other books, such as a Cobra 427 at the 1966 Targa Florio driven by Tony Settember and Ed Freutal.

[RallySnake]

PDHse,

Thank you. I think I remember that they used a GT40 as a camera car! What fun.

Paul

[What'saCobra?]

Well, at least I've got the stupid part down pretty darn good.

[SPEEDEAMON]

For those interested in sixties English cars I've got a '64 Lotus Cortina Mark 1 series 1 vintage racer for sale. The car was the sedan class champion in New Zealand in '66 and '67 driven by Barry Phillips of Pukekehoe. The car was Ford Works supported and I have all the docs. I have spent over $64K on preparing this car for vintage racing including engine upgrades, full (removable) cage, fire, all done to SCCA vintage specs. All dialed in and ready to race. Needs racing tires and rear window gasket only. The car will be on ebay soon. I am asking $24K, a mere fraction of what it would cost to prepare it. E-mail me for more info.

Shin

[Trevor Legate]

WhatsaCobra

You were correct to castigate me for my assumption about too much power. I really must engage brain before attacking keyboard. Yes - way too much foot. The Cobra just flew around the car park making luvverly noises - I'll settle for that. It was his car and his tyres so who am I to criticise?

I agree regarding comments about the on-off Sprite throttle. I just drove it third (sometimes fourth) and I ignored the brakes and just threw it into corners in the sure and certain knowledge I could sort the mess out half way round. The folly of youth! I thinks thats why I un-nerved any following car as I led them into corners sans brake lights, so they tended to assume the corner was not too severe......ashamed to say I used to play the same trick when I used to leave my "yound ladies" home late-ish at night. I would leave the town observing (almost) the speed limit and usually had some speed-freak up my exhausts by the time we cleared the limit. This led into a wonderful "ninety-left" bend that I could just get round at 60 in my 911 - the smart-arse behind usually did not. Silly game - call me irresponsible.

The Phillipe Hazan book comes up for sale but rarely - last copy I saw was not far off $700 in todays money. The details re CSX2142 can be found in the Shelby registry

The camera car on the Le Mans film was indeed a GT40. Ought to know the chassis number but I've forgotten (again)

[What'saCobra?]

Righto! You can even do the no brake or little or very late brake thing to hot shoe british racers.

This guy was all over me at the near end of this certain race, see. I could out accelerate him out of the corners, but he could regularly out brake me going in..your classic skill vs power contest. He was an annoyance and was breaking my concentration with his filling my mirrors on both sides going into each turn. The end of the race was coming up and I decided not to let him come in second and show him that at least one Yank had a few tricks to play.

So, I go very deep ( for me, Very Very deep), but stay on the nice safe left of the entrance to the final right/left chicane at Donnington, just before the S/F line. The hot shoe, who will remain nameless for today's session, PRESUMES I will never brake very hard (a reasonable assumption usually because I am an early braker quite often (but not ALWAYS and particularly not today at this corner). He slips into the right inside of the right turn, but using my brake lite as his signal to add 2 seconds to his brake point, he goes deep to get me on the right turn, inside the line.

But, this time, with the super wide and long escape road right in front of me, I have gone so deep I must go almost "stop and pitch a tent" slow in first gear from the very late and extreme left, just to make the right turn.

With that little tiny radius he has left remaining on the inside of this right turn and his extremely high speed and radically late braking, he cannot stop the car at all before the turn and he cooks it straight down the escape road crossing in front of me from my right to left with his nose air dam scraping on the tarmac! I sort of expected his left door to open and see his left foot come out to help with the braking.

Whereupon, your gentle-natured and well-matured scribe makes my nice easy right turn-in, after he has smoked (literaly) past me on my right, him most surprised at his speed and now embarassingly apparent and impossible braking task. Then I accelerate in first geat around the corner from my now rediculously slow speed due to the wierd but purposefully late and wide right turn-in, take the quick next left to complete the second half of the chicane and drop the hammer and smoke down the final straight to the finish line! 6.2 liters of fuel injected power screaming up through the gears, speedshifting without clutch, chirping with each upshift, with my gutbuster laughter all the way!

Ha! Mr. 'Iggens... just you wait, Mr. 'Iggens... (Liza Doolittle, played by Audry Hepburn in My Fair Lady, Scene 14).

The guy was never particularly friendly after that.

Fortunately for him, the turn is hidden from the pits, so his guys didn't actually see the event, but they heard about it when they asked others what happened. The crowd thought it was just the nuts.

But he really was a nice bloke, family type guy and an otherwise great driver. But, even the best of us can succumb to the red mist of high blood pressured misjudgement and who of us hasn't?

Some days, though, as you so gleefully also point out when you suckered those out-of-their-depth guys to follow you into that street corner at impossible for them speeds, it pays to get out of bed and that was my day.

[nikbj68]

This has to be THE best thread I`ve seen! Going back to the subject of Rallies, I think a few Aces rallied in the 50`s & 60`s... I`ll check later when I`m home.
PDHSE: Do you have a scanner with OCR? Or you could just type in the French text to this http://www.systranbox.com/systran/box .
Sometimes the translations are hilarious, I was looking at a German Cobra book auction & got this :
[i]"
THE COBRA BOOK!

After Trevor of legate: "no open questions, but passion and virulenz
purely..."

Introduction of the author: "a book, which acts of history,
the Cobras, lives by the support all that one, which was in and the
60's 50's time witnesses or in the recent past made themselves earned
around the Cobra.

In the special I would like to thank you the-half the following
persons, who in innumerable discussions and interviews memories and
information mediated and thus perhaps a particularly authentic
character to this book lent:

Carroll Shelby, Lew Spencer, Glenn Campbell, Patrick Shelby, Dave
Friedman, Rick Kopec, John Tojeiro, yokes Neerpasch and thickly
Smith."



Contents: "Obskures object of the longing, beauty or Bestie, cult
article or pervertierte technology, purpose or self purpose, sense or
nonsense... This book is to contribute to it, those for the particular
to find correct mixture out. Or if other reader should concerned at
the end of this book, the feeling ebenfallst to have had, the Cobra
"somehow" have driven or experience, the purchase price by 198, - DM
senseless was nevertheless not completely spent."

Michael merry 12 March 1990

[Trevor Legate]

Whazzacobra

Nice little tale of everyday racing folk - I know the Donington corner(s) well and have witnessed many a two-step similar to yours. So many heroes think that will be the very spot to cover themselves in glory on the last lap. Usually with the same result.

I had meant to bend my knee to you earlier, Sir, and admit that I am not worthy - anyone who ventures onto the circuit and takes part in the Supersports championship is a hero of comic-book level in my view. Some great races, beautiful cars and major horsepower, it gets no better, in my worthless opinion. If i had my time again I would have left college and got into the business of making money, just to earn the necessary folding that would get me trackside, instead of following my arty leanings and ending up in photography (and losing money writing Cobra books!). I did the rallying, autotesting, brought a Frogeye that had been raced prepared and ran out of cash. Unfinished business (that and Claudia Schiffer....) Mind you, the three guys who were in the back of my old estate reckoned I hold the lap record of Goodwood for a Volvo and reckoned my roll angles through the chicane would shame a 2CV. Aren't road cars quiet when you wear a crash hat??
Young Charlie A. managed to organise a great show and all credit to his efforts. It is amusing that the pilot of a twin-turbo M8 (HOW much horsepower???) became so enthusiastic about his new toy - a Smart Car. Back to the apochryphal tale of having almost as much fun at much slower speeds?

[nikbj68]

...Who the hell is "thickly Smith" ROFL!!!! (Dick Smith!)
Interesting book, appears to be autographed by Carroll Shelby and has a piece of original Cobra bodywork on the cover!!!
here`s the auction: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...EBWA%3AIT&rd=1

[wilf leek]

Oh. THAT escape road at the Donnington chicane. I unfortunately know it only too well. Almost as well as I know the run off areas at most of the other corners on that track (my only excuse - I was "learning" the car ). Despite the fact that I live only a few miles from that track, I shall never be driver enough to get it right all the way around it, it has some "interesting" corners. One has to know one's limits, race tracks show mine up very quickly. All due respect to those better at it than me.

Speaking of fun at low speeds, and also because someone mentioned a 2CV:

Some of my most memorable road drives were in a 2CV. Taking the back roads between Oswestry and Shrewsbury in a 2CV taught me more about good cornering lines and the importance of carrying speed through a corner than anything else I did before or since. The roll angles were absolutely hilarious, but those skinny little tyres hung on and on. I doubt I ever got above 60mph the whole trip, but it felt like I was flying when I got it right.
Despite the fun and enjoyment I get from what I call my "cobra", if I was pinned to a wall and asked to name the single most fun and interesting drive I ever had and remember, that little 2CV and those particular roads would be it. Ain't life strange?