Britain's "remarkable automotive cottage industry"

[wilf leek]

I debated with myself for all of ten seconds before jumping in, wish I had been awake when it all started.

Evan - much as I like you, you can be a complete toss-pot at times. What is the problem with acknowledging the input of others into CS's dream automobile? Like so many things, it was a joint effort, even if the public only remember one name as the head of it all (which is OK).

Please don't go down the "the world stops at the US border and nothing worth a damn ever got done outside it" route, else I shall have to remind you who designed, built, and operated the ONLY supersonic passenger jetliner. (and some of them were cheese eating surrender monkeys).

Or about a certain US WWII fighter that wasn't worth much until a Brit engine got dropped into it.

Or about a little ol' English sports car that first ran with a 260 V8 in ENGLAND!!. And about it's race pedigree before ol Shel ever got his hands on it.

Let's not go there though, I still like you.

[LURK]

Wilf! We've been waiting for you! You must know that the sole reason for starting this thread was just to egg you on a little...

-JT

[kitcarman]

Wow!
I’m not sure my new Cobra magazine is for you lot.

I’m all for getting the historical record straight and placing credit where credit’s due. But you lot have mentioned names, dates and places that I’ve never even heard of.

The British Cobra scene is more concerned about today. The bulk of reporting about Cobras in Kit Car (and the new Cobra magazine) has concerned what’s in the market of today. Where can you buy one? How can you build one? What are the differences? Where can I meet people who’ve got one? What do they cost? And other questions of such nature dominate our thinking.

So if it’s all the same to you, I’ll leave you discussing the past. It’s a real surprise though. I thought you Americans were forward looking people.

[LURK]

Den-

What's the matter... never heard of "radical fundamentalism" before?

To be serious for a moment though, there are as many forward looking people over here- pehaps Carroll Shelby more than most even... (and some complain).

There are plenty of people here who are looking for the answers to the questions you say you're focused on. Getting them to PAY for the magazine is a whole 'nother deal (can you say cheap?)

One way to achieve that goal is to have an article entitled "Would you believe those Yanks?"

There's always more to learn...

-JT

[REAL 1]

I think it was Claus Arning at Ford that designed the Chasis.

Well, I'm not saying everything worth while stops at the U.S. border.

While AC had the platform in the Ace that provided the right take off point or base for the Cobra, it was not a "Cobra" and it didn't attain icon status because of AC.

I agree that w/o CS the Ace would have marched on with some little straight six and ended up a footnote in some automotive history book.

As to the 427 it is 100% Shelby (which means Miles, Arning, Remington and the good crew at SAI) in conception, design, developement. As to the shape, I believe it was Shelby that wanted to retain the look of the MkIII with the MkIV. The shape was enlarged to encompass the beefier chasis.

I think its fair to say the 'Brits' have not been as kind to the 427 as the 289 seeing the former as a overgrown monster. The attitude almost seems to be one of 'blaming' the Americans for 'ruining' the "beautiful" lines of the 289 Cobra which is clearly a worked Ace.

Wilf: Not to worry. You guys had the right platform for starters. It took good ol' American grit and tenacity to turn a mild little roadster into a world icon in two versions.

But for CS there would be no Cobra. An Ace but no Cobra.

Wilf: Don't get me wrong. I love you Brits and proud to have you guys as Allies (even though you did try to knock us off twice in the Revolution and again in the War of 1812). And while the Merlin engine was a dream come true for the Mustang lets not forget you guys were in deep doo doo and had your hands full with the Third Reich. Without the U.S. entering the war with American pilots flying those Mustangs and the rest of the U.S. forces the results very likely might have been much different.

Again good ole American muscle, grit and tenacity to finish the job right.



P.S. You Brits get credit for many things not the least of which are the U.S. Army Rangers of WWII who were first organized and trained by British Commandos in WWII. For that I am very grateful. So was my father. Always said the Brit Commandos were terrific soldiers.

There is tie between our two countries and people like no other IMHO.



P.S. P.S. I agree the French are cheese eating surrender monkeys.

[Excaliber]

Britain has such a long and storied past I rarely think of it without "looking back", ha ha.

It is a worthy goal compiling information on whats available today for the replica enthusiast.

All though one man usually gets the credit sometime that bothers me. The coach can't do squat if he doesn't have a good team to work with.

I like the current crop of NASCAR drivers who almost continually remind the fans: Without their pit crew and engine builders they haven't got a chance. Truly it IS a team effort.

Ernie

[computerworks]

Originally posted by kitcarman


So if it’s all the same to you, I’ll leave you discussing the past. It’s a real surprise though. I thought you Americans were forward looking people.

"...those that ignore the past are doomed to republish it as new."

[What'saCobra?]

In the interests of candor and helpful but spirited debate, consider the following:

Nothing wrong with kit cars in my book.

They have kept the flame through all the CS's wilderness years with treks to Kenya, Chrysler, court suits and now re-manufacturing as many as 6 different cars with perhaps 4 or 5 kinds of materials, global suppliers and the perennial court depositions.

Not does our interest in historical detail make us any less forward looking than yourself, your wonderful kin or your lovely race-heritaged country.

Some of us find keeping some of the details as straight as possible most interesting, always a source of new learning as we discover what we knew for sure wasn't even so, a great source of entertainment and pleasure, an excellent study of human heroics and foibles, a valuable source of engineering change, market flux, economic variance and whatever else I can scribble here.

Your mildish rebuke of our lack of forward looking is welcome, but needs to be squared with American prominince in most engineering (ever hear of glass or carbon fiber construction?), science (have you seen the spectral analysis of rocks on Mars via a mini-telescope?) and lots more, as you surely know.

We are not only the largest group of kit buyers (and everything else) and magazines of every ilk in the world, but if you are lucky and get with the wide spectrum of Cobraphiles over here, you might even find us the largest consumers of your new mag; which is a welcome to the field.

Perhaps the exploits of champions like Ken Miles (who believed no Cobra should have ANY anti-roll bars per Bob Negstad), John Wolfe (I drove one of his championship cars that went from 0 to 60 in much less than 3 seconds, anyone hazard a guess which one?) are not your cup of tea. OK by me.

Maybe even the fact that the vaulted Aston Martin needed the masterful driving of a chicken farmer from Tejas to cinch their Le Mans win isn't pretty interesting to you. Maybe you are not interested that he and Dale Duncan raced a Cad-Allard in Buenos Aires in 1954 and it doesn't give you a hint about what helped CS envy the concept of a big USA V-8 in a sweet spot chassis.

And, maybe the fact that some early and not always successful alloy FORD transmissions broke under competition use doesn't hint about the potential problems of installing a newly designed alloy case toploader in your kit isn't helpful.

Maybe you don't understand that it was the seven GT victories and two second places during 1965 by Cobra Daytona coups, winning the international Manufacturer's Championship for Grand Touring Cars explains why the Daytona is the hottest and most desired kit car in the current and near future.

Maybe you are not interested in the fact that no less than 4 non-American drivers helped win the championship, Jo Schlesser, Sir John Whitmore, Joachim Neerpasch and Jack Sears which made it not just an American car with American drivers.

For many of us, the facination of both the equipment and men of the not so far distant past, in which we may even have personally participated in some small way is both interesting and important to keep.

The world of kit cars and their current superb accomplishment (of some) and disasterous theft and trash are also as interesting to some of us as the "olden times."

Who can possibly summarize accurately the current state of AC/Shelby/Price negotiations/machinations? You don't think that is interesting? OK by me.

Only in the future will we know the rest of the story and some of us look forward to finding it out, as we drive/race/polish our new and old machines and read our new and old magazines, which will include yours if you can measure up.

[Trevor Legate]

As someone new to this site can I just say 'Hi' to all ( and 'Jolly Good Show' to the fellow British members....)

Just to state my credentials, I am guilty of having written two books, so far, about the car in question. I started out supplying photographs for a proposed Cobra book in 1979 and then got railroaded into writing it as well, and never really stopped. Never owned one, always too expensive, driven lots, courtesy of kind owners. ( But I do drive a Caterham 7 as a substitute )

The point of my message - it always grieves me to keep reading the old chestnut that AC Cars were saved by extinction by the arrival of a certain Texan. Untrue. I spent a good deal of time with the late Derek Hurlock, AC's MD at the time, even visiting his home, and believe me, AC were far from going under! In reality, they were an engineering business that owned a number of smaller companies making all manner of products - trailers amongst other things. Also - they had a substantial government contract and I know from personal experience that any company with one of those under its belt can hardly fail to make money. When the Hurlock family purchased the remains of the original AC Cars circa 1934, they only wanted the premises so they could continue building commercial vehicles. They discovered they had also brought a lot of almost-built cars and a service department that was making profits, so they carried on, mostly for the fun of it. They may have continued trading as AC Cars Ltd, but cars were always a side-line. The profits were made elsewhere. They were not "going under".

Re the V8 engine question - Derek Hurlock had already had meetings with Jaguar in the hope of using the V8 from the Daimler Dart, but nothing ever came of that approach. The AC dealer Ken Rudd had already dropped a Corvette V8 into an Ace but the Hurlocks were not impressed. He also promoted the use of the Ford straight-six and went on to sell more cars via his showroom than AC could sell themselves. Charles Hurlock was not amused by being up-staged and demanded the end of the Ford-Ace, for which Rudd never forgave him. He refused to assist AC any further.

Derek Hurlock was sure that an engine would be sourced - its just that they had not heard about the new Ford 260 until Carroll Shelby walked through the door and forged the link with Ford USA. Without doubt, the racing programme developed the car into a tough machine in a short space of time but all the engineering work was carried out, and drawings made by, AC's chief engineer Alan Turner, assisted on occassion by Phil Remington who dropped in to oversee the work that AC did. The original Ace chassis was designed by John Tojeiro and should not be under-rated. I witnessed just what his design could do at Goodwood in 2002 when one of his Bristol-engined Tojeiros seriously embarassed a field of much faster cars - Astons, Jag C-types - when driven to its absolute limit. You could actually see the car flex and twist as it was thrown through the fastest corners but its handling and roadholding was a revelation - just like watching an early Cobra! ( It finally broke a stub axle and lost a wheel, hardly suprisingly, but it was fun while it lasted!)

The 427 chassis was one of the first to be designed by Klaus Arning using a computer, but when the drawings arrived at AC, part of the rear suspension was shown to be located in the area of the passenger seat. The suspension layout was created by Bob Negstad on loan from Ford - as before, it was put together by Alan Turner, and tested to destruction by Ken Miles!!

The reason that the 427 did not catch on in the UK is that we don't have suitable roads. We have bends, all over the place, so the 289 is far more suitable and perfectly quick enough, thank you. Also, fuel is just a tad expensive over here. I remember the first time I filled a car in the USA and thought it must have had a 2-gallon tank! It was a pleasure to hand over my $8.

Anyhow, due to my enforced involvement with AC, and my opinion that the Cobra is THE best-looking, and sounding sports car ever, that's my take on the matter.... and the 289FIA is the best of the lot, for my money (having driven the Kirkham version!!)

[computerworks]

Trevor... thanks.

...and welcome.

[What'saCobra?]

But..

Didn't Claus work for Negstad? Isn't Negstad's design management and creative input as important to authorship as CS's skills in "creating" the Cobra from the AC Rudspeed? Is that fair and balanced?

It is a severe mischaracterization of AC's racing heritage, even right here in our own SCCA's history, to condem their world wide racing championships to a mere "...footnote in some automotive history book." I won't even bother to detail the exploits. It's in a book.

By the way that "little straight six" (Bristol) was a BMW design that had been given to Britain as part of the war reparations act after WWII. Good design for the times and won more races for more years than the 427 for sure or perhaps even the 289.

Shelby didn't exactly decide to retain the MKII shape into the MKIII (your typo, not MKIII into MKIV), but instead he had no other ideas about what to do. It took wippersnapper Pete Brock to envision the Daytona. Shelby never then pushed the Daytona shape to the 427 production due to FORD's insistance on dropping the car.

The Brit's do find the 427 something of a blight on their asthetic sensibilities. Many American's agree, viz their remarkable interest in the FIA shapes in todays kit market. But recall that the 427 car was never even legal for historic racing in the British highly developed race scene (which existed WAY before we got interested in old clapped-out race cars.) They can't even use 4-bolt main block 289's and more than one champion has lost his title/win points to a tear down. (ex: Chris Hitchens, who only used the newer block without installing the two extra bolts!)

(Even so, the SCCA resisted the trends and ignored historic racing until they started losing mucho members and money to VSCCA, HRS, SVRA, etc.)

The grit and tenacity mostly came from Ken Miles, a Brit, who died trying, Phil Remington, who broke his butt getting stuff done right the first time and Pete Brock who faced big-time ridicule for his Daytona design. CS was by that time a wheelin' and dealin' pat-me-on-the-back-charlie of the best sort, of course.

None of this takes away from what CS accomplished with his skilled and lucky team. He was a great driver and a cool customer who gave no quarter.

Some say, however, that he is an expensive partner.

------------------------------------------
Not to put too sharp a point on it, but it is acknowledged that the Hurricane and Spitfire were the aircraft that turned the war, not the Mustang.

The Mustang was a longer range fighter that protected our long range bombers trying to force the German population into capitulation, which did not succeed, as more historians acknowledge. What succeeded was the air supported ground war.

As nice but late as the Rolls Merlin powered Mustang was, it was preceeded by the Allison powered Mustang, which proved only a little slower and at a lower altitude.

Which Allison, by the way, has won Unlimited Hydro races for nearly 50 years. Who boat raced a Rolls Merlin? Only a few. Couldn't keep it on song on the water I was told. Wouldn't tolerate the dynamic loads, either. They still race today...

[wilf leek]

Trevor Legate - a distinct pleasure to find you here, even tho' I am merely a Brit on a US site, I hope my welcome would be echoed by all.

Everyone else, I hope you realise what a breadth of knowledge this chap can bring - his books are standard reference items so far as I am concerned. Gosh, first Tom Monroe, now Trevor, I am so impressed with this site.



What'saCobra? - who says the English only embrace the 289? Or find the 427 "vulgar"?? We can't afford aesthetic sensibilities these days anyway

Judging by the numbers of replicas over here, the 427 is by far the more popular. The 289 was and is pretty though.

Lastly, the Mustang just could not provide cover for the bombers all the way to the target and back until it was given the Merlin engine, and many young airmen died in the daylight bombing campaign because of that. Sad times.

Anyway - I like the way you throw long words into your posts, spelling and grammar even - my kinda guy!



Evan - I seem to have gotten away with calling you a "tosspot", next time we meet I will explain what it means.

[Cal Metal]

Evan:

Never underestimate the grit, guts and determination of the RAF Pilots of WW II. America's arsenal of democracy ultimately saved the free world, but the RAF won the Battle of Britain and checked the German advance. Without them, the war could have had a whole different outcome.

[LURK]

Hey Evan Wilf is calling you a drunk! (Just when things were getting all nice in here too). I think you need to make him buy you a round...

You can go right back at him though (how about calling him a "fusty plume-plucked maggot-pie")

Use the handy-dandy Shakespearian Insult Generator over at: http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/Shaker/index.html

-JT (aka "Bogtrotter")

[StephenC]

So.........................

Being the worldly, sophisticated American that I am who always looks beyond US borders for true enlightenment, I just want to know why all those British and Australian Cobras have the steering wheel on the wrong side. Huh?

To quote Tom Cruse, "I crack myself up!" (Top Gun?)

LMAO

Gotta' go,



BTW: Is a "tosspot" anything like a "nightpot"?

[rdorman]

What about this article got any one wound up?

"There are survivors out there. AC is Britain's oldest car company and also has one of the most turbulent histories. Currently it is based in Frimley, Surrey and produces the Cobra, as it has done on and off since 1962, and has reforged its licensing deal with Carroll Shelby, the American creator of the Cobra idea (a fat Ford V8 in an AC Ace sports car)."

They give Shelby credit as the creator of the Cobra. Not AC.

On another note, what if the author was using the word 'fat' in the slang sense where 'fat = cool'?

And who didn't rip some thing of from Ferrari and their designers? Ecspecially back then.

Rick

[REAL 1]

No question AC is a part of the Cobra storey.

Its just that SAI and CS are the star of the show with AC in a supporting role.

Thats how I see based on historical fact.

[computerworks]

Originally posted by REAL 1


Thats how I see based on {my interpretation of} historical fact.

[REAL 1]

No, its pretty clear. Any argument to the contrary is "revisionist" history.

[rdorman]

OK fellows! Lets put it to rest shall we and not get all bogged down in the details

Can we agree on:
- The Cobra was Shelby's idea
- The success of the Cobra (and WWII for that matter) was a colabritive effort
- Lucas is the prince of darkness

Rick