Britain's "remarkable automotive cottage industry"

[REAL 1]

Trevor: Thanks for the info and response.

[Trevor Legate]

Trevor, Mr. Legate, SIR, welcome to the forum and thank you for your input. I've made your books a part of my library for years and it's nice to see an intellectual type occasionally interrupt our mindless banter here with real insight... [/b][/quote]



Not only does nobody call me Sir, but nobody EVER calls me "an intellectual type" at least not to my face. I think I'm gonna like it here................thank you all, just throw money....

[snakeeyes]

Keep writing those books, and we will...

[Mark IV]

...don't go all "HELTER SKELTER" on us now.....


Rick

[tonysshelbys]

I've been fascinated reading all of the posts regarding this subject. Although I am firmly in the "Shelby made the Cobra what it is camp" I really would like to put my two cents regarding the post on Shelby and the GT-40. Let's not forget the GT-40 in 1964 was an absolute loser! God bless John Wyer but FAV under his direction couldn't make the GT-40 even finish a race let alone win anything. It was Ford's corporate decision to turn the Ford GT program over to Shelby American because of Shelby American's ability to WIN races with the Cobras (289 FIA's and Daytona Coupes in 1964, FIA'S won hillclimbs in 1964 under Bondurant's driving).
Let's also remember, it was SA that decided to scrap the Indy 4.2 liter engine and go with the proven 289 HI-PO.
Results are what count and the GT-40's won its debut race under the Shelby American banner at Daytona and then Sebring.

[snakeeyes]

There seems to be some perception today that, when it comes to the GT40, everyone but Shelby American--Kar Kraft, FAV, Holman-Moody--was incompetent. I personally remain in awe of Phil Remington and his contemporaries at Shelby, but let's not forget that it generally takes two or more years to work the bugs out of an endurance racer. The examples are endless--the Porsche 917, the Matras of the early Seventies, the Audi R8, and yes, even the GT40, which started to enjoy some success in 1965 but didn't have it's "Le Mans shoes" on until 1966. I once asked Rem about people referring to Kar Kraft as "Kiddie Kar," and he responded that they did some damned good work, and that he respected them.

As far as FAV, I don't know how much of the car's early failures can be blamed on FAV's "faults", as opposed to simply being the growth pains of a new design. I have read, like many of us "historians" here, that the car lost something like 50 horsepower due to the internal ducting. The gearbox problems are well-documented. The replacing of the wire wheels with magnesium ones is likewise well-known, but I can't think of any race-related failures attributable to them. Ford wanted a winner, yesterday, but I think it probably would have been difficult for anyone, Shelby or otherwise, to produce one "out of the box." Shelby did have the advantage of receiving cars that had already been run, and broken, in competition. They then took the cars to Riverside and ran the "whee" out of them, addressing concerns as they arose, which was something Rem and crew excelled at.

Cal, we'll have to talk to Phil some more about the involvement of some of the other entities in the '40's development.

Coincidentally, before his death, another Shelby legend, Carroll Smith, was working with Pete Lyons and Earl Teske on a book about the development of the GT40. Publication was postponed by Smith's unfortunate passing last year. I saw Pete Lyons at Monterey last August and he told me he was sorting through an enormous amount of fascinating information Smith had provided him, and hoped to get the book out by the end of 2003. Obviously that hasn't happened, but I noted a couple of weeks ago that Amazon.com has the book available for pre-order, with a publication date of April listed. I have e-mailed Pete Lyons to see how accurate that date is, but haven't heard back from him yet.

Bob

[What'saCobra?]

My daddy once told me that some lawyers will rework and rework their propositions until something finally floats. He used to call the behavior the Doctor is God theory.

Again, in the spirit of honest inquiry,

Has anyone ever heard the story about how CS screwed Ken Miles out of his first place win at Le Mans, by dropping one lap from the counting when Miles refused to slow down?

A very senior FORD person assured me that this was so, I believe him, but have never found anyone to assist in confirming it. I don't know because I wasn't there.

THAT should keep the blood circulating!

[REAL 1]

What I heard is that Ford was behind the decision to have the Miles GT40 finish 2nd. Makes sense since it was their publicity show and were the ones who called the shots to Shebly.

[Excaliber]

Whilst extolling the virtues of the Shelby camp I cannot imagine degrading the likes of the legendary Holman Moody camp.

Some awesome automotive history with H and M.

Ken Miles finish second: So what your saying is even WAY back in the mid 60's some manufacturers were calling the shots on who came in first?

Heresy I tell you!!! What will you say next, that Ferrari calls the shots on who wins in F1? Impossible (and pigs fly)!

Ernie

[snakeeyes]

...admit it, you just used the term "whilst" because you're sucking up to our English friends!

[Excaliber]

Dang,,,,,, busted I am.

Ernie

[snakeeyes]

"busted I am."

...sounds like a quote from the new Dr. Seuss book, "Sam Goes to Jail."

Anyhow, back to our program. Anyone want to debate the issue of whether the MkIV is a GT40 or not?

[Cal Metal]

Snakeeyes:

More like an "evolvement".

[REAL 1]

Trevor: In re-reading your post above it seems that you agree that CS was determined to create the "Cobra" whether with Aston, Healey or whatever suitable chasis he could get his hands on. I for one am glad the Ace was in the right place at the right time.

As to Shelby not assigning his own chasis #, this seems true but SAI did affix its own manufacturers ID plate to the chasis adopting the CSX # assigned by AC and removing any ID plates or any other obvious id of the name of the chasis and body fabricator. This clearly evidences at least CS's mind set and his apparent view that the car, the "Shelby Cobra" that left SAI was his product and no one elses.

I interpret you statements as to the "huff" between Angliss and CS steming from CS's "view" that regardless of the genisis of the chasis and body at AC, CS viewed the cars as Shelby Cobras and a product of SAI. Is this correct? This also ties into the preceding paragraph above.

As to Shelby not carrying any liability insurance, has anyone researched whether there was any indemnity agreements between SAI and Ford for suits related to the Cobra and any claims generated from its use. Also, being that the Cobra was really a venture heavily involving Ford, Shelby and AC, Ford undoubtedly would find themselves as a defendant in any suit alleging a defect as to product. My point is that in light of the fact Ford would clearly be a viable and responsible defendant as to any claim based on defect perhaps SAI didn't need insurance especially if SAI had an indemnification agreement with Ford.

Just some thoughts and observations.

[computerworks]

Originally posted by REAL 1


As to Shelby not assigning his own chasis #, this seems true but SAI did affix its own manufacturers ID plate to the chasis adopting the CSX # assigned by AC and removing any ID plates or any other obvious id of the name of the chasis and body fabricator. This clearly evidences at least CS's mind set and his apparent view that the car, the "Shelby Cobra" that left SAI was his product and no one elses.

Evan... ALL 289 cars maintained the AC Cars ID Plate, with the CSX number... there was no SA plate installed.

They started the "Shelby American" ID Plates with the CSX3xxx cars.

[What'saCobra?]

In the spirit of honest and respectful inquiry, what'saCobra notes and asks:

Let's see now. Your earnest scribbler here had three 289's, purchased in the US of A, all through shelby channels, 1963 and 1964, and none, that is, zip had any SA/SI or other Shelby ID's at all anywhere on the car.

They were all three AC Cobras, with AC data plates and no additionals or over placements or any other appendages. The Operators Manual, with two brass bolt/screw attachments, which I still have, also said AC Cobra on the cover and all over the inside.

Most people would be graciously willing to say these looked like this because they were AC Cobras...

CS was very proud of his connections with AC in the early years because they added a 60 year old hand crafted cachet to his project, were a known make, had a famous racing histoire and made homologation at the FAI and SCCA a lot easier.

I suppose familiarity bred some contempt with the perhaps stoggy way the cottage "industry" worked or maybe didn't work.

(Seems to me that the invoices all came from AC to SA, not to FORD. But, I don't remember who wrote the payment checks.)

Likely someone here can verify that the SA plates didn't appear until the 427 came upon the scene, but I am not really quite precisely sure. Maybe 1965?

----------------------------------------------
Ps: If the coveted CSX serial numbers were so much a vital part of the original Shelby legend, why did CS bastardize/prostitute them on the dopey Chrysler 4 banger which most of us don't even wish to stand near at any shows, let alone associate by co-location? Doesn't this indicate at least in some way CS's own disrespect for the brand and history at that time? You know, before all that "munny" was involved in making "copies of copies." Can you spell sour grapes?

And, wasn't he stealing another company's serial logo? Or did he get a release from the Hurlocks?

[What'saCobra?]

PPs: The steering wheel center logo was also AC, right before your bloomin' eyes, between both your mands, upon which you could bloody die, screaming...
"I was made by AC Cars, Ltd."

[REAL 1]

Sorry. Actually, I was thinking of the 427 not 289.

[tonysshelbys]

What'saCobra points to many signs that AC supposedly was the primary force behind the 289 Cobra including the AC badge on the steering wheel. So? He conveniently forgets the most important evidence: the homologation papers filed with the FIA from the time CSX 0001 (later on CSX 2000) was up and running as the first Cobra. Those papers list Shelby American of Venice, CA. as the manufacturer, NOT AC. Note too that the Hurlocks certainly didn't protest or contest that documentation. If AC really was the supposed manufacturer, do you really think they would have allowed Shelby American to usurp their claim to the proper credit with the FIA? I think not.

[nikbj68]

Originally posted by Trevor Legate


Oh yes, feel free to call me Sir - nobody else does. (LOL!! )

Not sure if any Cobras were written off over here in road accidents. You may recall the late David Purley totalling his car one foggy November at Paddock Hill bend, Brands Hatch. He told me that he cut it up and threw it in a skip. I told him that it climbed out again and restored itself......you just can't keep a good Cobra down!!!

My Dad 'broke' CS2131 at Crystal Palace, following the rule that "...if someone spins infront of you, aim for where they are, `cos when you get there, they`ll be gone..." but when he got there, so were they, so severe avoiding action took him off the track & stopping against a sleeper, knocking the front suspension 'A' post back an inch & effectively ending his racing career due to the cost of repair.

tonysshelbys said:Note too that the Hurlocks certainly didn't protest or contest that (FIA) documentation. If AC really was the supposed manufacturer, do you really think they would have allowed Shelby American to usurp their claim to the proper credit with the FIA? I think not.

Not the British way old chap. Stiff upper lip and all that. If AC had had a character like Shelby at the helm, some of the 'overlooked' aspects of the supply agreements would,I`m sure, have been not allowed to slip.