Britain's "remarkable automotive cottage industry"

[What'saCobra?]

What'saCobra never said, claimed or believed that AC was the "driving force" behind the Cobra. It was CS's idea.

Does that help relieve the angst?

Reading the thread should evidence my plain spoken view that CS and his entourage of youthful panting 427-fixated kit owners from time to time forget the huge team of talent, bags of FORD money and AC's history and fabrication skills ALL contributed to executing the Cobra (the name of a late fifties Chris Craft speed boat very popular in California), and then make outlandish claims and even, lord forgive, errors of fact regarding the cars, their history and the people who broke their butts getting it done correctly and CS's real inputs. Do you think they were all just "hirelings?"

There are plenty of examples of homologation papers being filed by second or third parties, so that is not a necessary proof, but merely reflects an acurate history of the homologation process that was used.

Why should Hurlock protest? His cars were being homologated for free. He was a penny pinching tightwad whose design/delivery cycle was measured in decades, when he was paying attention between tea breaks, like most of Britain at the time.

Will you kindly recall that AC continued to build and sell beautiful and complete cars as 289 MarkIII's long after CS. SA and FORD bailed? Were they "manufactured" by SA? Or were the British Type Certificates properly showing the manufacturer as AC? Of course, the latter.

AC continued to experiment and build other exotic cars, like the MarkIII based Frua, etc, but never sold many.

And didn't Angliss continue the production until way into the 90's, while Shel' was swapping hearts for pete's sake?

Even Lubinsky (shudder) built some 427's (on the QT), Carbon fiber bodied cars, supercharged engine cars, etc.

In fact, Price's FIA by AC arrived all painted in the USA at least nine months ago and was mostly ignored (except by Shel at the Amelia Island display, who went apoplectic and almost needed O2).

If old Shel' doesn't think the AC name is worth a flea's twat, why is he sniffing and shuffling around with a Lubinsky to set up something like the old AC source system? Hmmm?

Just follow the "munny" guys (thanks Trev.)

Just a little more fair and balanced, aye?

What'saCobra has lived with real cars in the garage for over 40 years, loves the old chicken murderering farmer and hasn't forgetten nuttin'.

[nikbj68]

Originally posted by What'saCobra?


What'saCobra never said, claimed or believed that AC was the "driving force" behind the Cobra. It was CS's idea.
Does that help relieve the angst? From reading the post, I thought you gave 'credit where credit`s due' nothing more or less!


.....And didn't Angliss continue the production until way into the 90's, while Shel' was swapping hearts for pete's sake?
I think a more accurate description would be commenced re-production, as He started off making spares & restoring cars for Cobra owners in the early-mid seventies, only graduating to AC licensed production of the mkIV in the 80`s.

.......Just a little more fair and balanced, aye? AYE!

What'saCobra has lived with real cars in the garage for over 40 years, loves the old chicken murderering farmer and hasn't forgetten nuttin'. You lucky lucky Sod!

[Trevor Legate]

To respond to various comments and add assorted thoughts:

I only mentioned that SA had won the races with their GT40s and Holman Moody did not - but utter Respect to H&M. They have more history than I've had hot dinners and they have to be amongst my favoritest race teams of all times. Also had the honor of spending time with Lee Holman who is a true gent - anyone who takes the time to scare the bejeezuz out of me by taking me up the road in his GT40 always gets my vote. ( I survived!!) And as Lee pointed out, someone had to guard the cars and pack up the tools as the Shelby crowd went off to party after the races....thats a quote from him, not me.

The old, old tale that the Cobras were were classified as Shelby Cobras with the FIA is the line that keeps being trawled up by the SAAC, who continue to make the claim that AC were only an outside contractor who supplied parts to Shelby. True, but stretching the truth further than any politican would dare. The boxes of parts seemed to arrive in the form of an almost complete car.....Of course Shelby registered them as Shelby Cobras. He would would'nt he? And did he think to discuss this with AC? Would AC object - of course not, they were not bothered about going racing on a big scale, that was what Shelby was there for and they were hardly going to bite the hand that was feeding them! Would you? They were doing very nicely punting out a '50s stye sports car and getting paid. Luvly jubly, as we say over here. I really do not think that AC were aware that they were making a piece of motoring history, or even about the future history, they were too busy punting out cars (sorry - parts). Hindsight is a wonderful thing!!!

The other thing that a lot of people forget is that, during the 60s, the Cobras were just another sports car, devalued like any other car on the used-car market and had little value and only a minority following. After Shelby stopped taking the 427, AC then built their own version, the AC 289 Sports that was the nicest example of the breed, with a 427-style body and the most practical engine. (That was the car that really grabbed me, although I was lucky enough to go to Art College in Worthing, virtually next door to Ken Rudd's AC dealership. The sight AND SOUND of a Cobra rumbling around that crappy old retirement town was enough to hook me for life! Guess where I spent my lunch breaks?) The 289 was then dropped in 1968 for the simple reason that nobody wanted them, not when the same money brought a Jaguar-E or a Porsche 911S, even an Aston Martin etc. The discussion as to who built/registered/owned the Cobra only surfaced in the 70s when values began to increase and Angliss arrived on the scene to start manufacturing spares, which in turn grew into a larger business....only weird people like me ever bothered to pay the car any attention back then.

Slightly off-topic......I have great respect for SAAC, even if I have to disagree with a few of its "teachings" regarding the history thing, as I have attended one of their conventions, at Charlotte and I was a bit impressed to say the least. (Altough...hundreds of Cobras and only 6 originals....?) Rick Kopec invited me on stage to say why I thought there was such a thing as an AC Cobra. What I MEANT to say was that for people such as myself, the Cobra could only be an AC since every car we saw in England was covered in AC badges - I even used to make the journey to Thames Ditton to stand in front of the big glass window and lust (sorry) after the guardsman blue AC 289 Sports that stood there for years. Also, Shelby was hardly ever mentioned over here and California was a bloody long way off back then!! So of course people in the UK thought they were AC Cobras - in this sceptered isle, they were.

One final point - I think that Derek Hurlock has been greatly misunderstood in the US of A, as it was his uncle Charles who was a bit of "tightwad"....but I realised that Derek was more proud of his connection and dealings with Ford than with Shelby. Not that he disliked Shelby at all, he found him charming and funny - just a little loud for British tastes, you understand!! Maybe he had a point, as one of the comments made by a senior Ford "suit" was that whenever Shelby left his office, he always checked to see if his wallet was still there. But everyone admits that the guy got things done and knew how to pick the right people to do his bidding!!!!!!!

Here endeth my latest ponderings......feel free to disagree, etc

[wilf leek]

Oh, how I do like this.

One Brit (myself) comes along and tries to restore the AC/Shelby balance, and many Americans descend on me to inform me that AC was some fleapit hole-in-the-wall subbie hardly worth mentioning, with some old car design destined for historical extinction until some proper mechanics (US, naturally) sorted it out!
Never mind what is in the various books on the subject of it's prior race success for all to see.

Couple of other Brits, plus some lucky chap from Fl with a barn full of the things and a good memory (Sorry What'saCobra, I am sure you worked long and hard for everything you have, but allow me a little artistic licence if you would?) and all of a sudden, history is re-written.

As I said - I love it.

[LURK]

My work here is done

-JT

[StephenC]

Hey...................

Is it time to go back to talking about chili yet? Or how about chicken farming, or the Shelby Charger of the '80's, or the Viper, or the new Cobra, or the cost of signing a glove compartment door?

Since I know absolutely nothing about this topic, I'll have to wait until we start talking about something else. Chances are, I will know absolutely nothing about the new subject either and will be forever relegated to sitting here wishing I knew something about anything.

If I were smarter, I'd know alot more than I do now.

[Trevor Legate]

[quote]Originally posted by StephenC


[b]Hey...................

Is it time to go back to talking about chili yet? Or how about chicken farming, or the Shelby Charger of the '80's, or the Viper, or the new Cobra, or the cost of signing a glove compartment door?

Since I know absolutely nothing about this topic, I'll have to wait until we start talking about something else. Chances are, I will know absolutely nothing about the new subject either and will be forever relegated to sitting here wishing I knew something about anything.

If I were smarter, I'd know alot more than I do now.


Having maybe flogged this topic to death - yeah lets talk chicken farming. How did you the Hurlock family owned a farm in Suffolk? Dammit, I should have got some good quotes at the time, 'bout the times Derek Hurlock and ol' Shel would disappear into a barn for a darn good pluckin'........sadly AC Cars never got into the chilli market but I believe Phil Remington can relate tales of Derek Hurlock's legendary rice puddings - ahh, happier times!
As for signing glove box doors - pay my air fare out there and I'll sign for free! What - not me? Oh.

Greetings to Wilf....keep the ol' flag flying my son (It is the right way I assume?)

Oh well, having stated the AC case as I, and maybe only I, see it, I shall stagger off into the sunset. But I'll be back (as Carroll Shelby maybe said.. and patented)

[wilf leek]

Trevor - the really astonishing aspect of this thread is that it stayed pretty much on-topic for 8 pages.

If you browse this site for just a short while, you will appreciate just how rare an occurence that is. I have, to my shame/credit, perpetuated more than one "thread hi-jacking" in the past, not sure how I managed not to this time.

Personally, I learnt a great deal from it, and thoroughly enjoyed the interactions. Even with Evan.

Long live Anglo/US collaboration(or should that be US/Anglo????).


Edit: Now that I said the above about staying on topic, this thread is doomed to become the greatest example of "topic swerving" in the history of CC!

[StephenC]

Mr. Legate:

First, let me say I have really enjoyed this discussion and your contributions to it. It's amazing how many people have the "facts". Apparently, I am the ONLY person here at CC that does not have the REAL version of the story. LOL

Next......

I don't know about anyone else, but I would really like to hear the story about CS and Derek pluckin' (that is an "L" and not an "H" in "pluckin'", correct?) in the chicken barn.

LMAO!

BTW: "I'll be back!" is a quote attributed to a certain American/Austrian actor, now governor of a certain state on the US left coast.

Also: Events of the past decade have shown the Brits to be America's best friend/ally. May it always be that way. God save the Queen and God bless America!

[What'saCobra?]

It is as it was, Trevor

Who would argue that Charles wasn't the squeeker? No penny went without a home if uncle Charles was about. He husbanded pennies like a copper monger.

Or disagree that Derek was the risk taker, humorist and futurist of the delightful pair of anachronistic gentlemen?

And who of knowledge would disagree that a small block MKIII isn't the best handling driver of the lot? Some properly feel they were the best of everything, without the buggy springs and whips.

But, listen, not many here in the land of proper cold beers ever hear of the MKIV Lightweight, series AKL1xxx.

The Lightweight was a rather serious limited production variant of the Mark IV, without all the funny looking modern stuff, if you didn't want it. They were often bespoke, that is, made to your preference with regard to engine mods, cockpit style/trim (MKIII or MKIV), axle ratios, header choice, etc.). The 4" tube frames were internally reinforced better, 4" alloy racing fuel caps recessed into the fender were de rigeur, original gauge thin alloy skins, a beautifully cut, let and smooth finished carb air scoop, proper MKIII style chrome driver-only roll bar (screw 'em riderr) and many other goodies.

Most of the engines were single Holley carbed 302 Mathwals of about 345 HP providing 0-100 clicksperhour (62mph) in 4.2 seconds and 1-160c/h (100mph) in 10 seconds flat as a British National Type Approval certified street car. This was rolling on Perelli P7R VR-15 high speed street rubber.

The engine bay would accomodate a 427 iron lump, but the 351 and its stroker brothers are a perfect fit.

The Lightweights, as you might expect, were MUCH lighter (nearly 200£'s) than the rather more genteel but nevertheless drop-dead beautiful street MKIV's.

Oh, and did I tell you that the Lightweights mostly had big sedan-sized BMW fully ventilated brakes all around, utilizing the most lovely small vacuume powered dual master cylinder/acctuator?

All of which makes the to-die-for Girling CS's etc. pretty much crap in comparison? This system should be on some of your kits, you guys. Talk about sharp and easy performance... and it fits.

As this gorgeous striped-ape version of a MKIV (almost a MKIII) was happening, Shel was trying to get some customers to wackoff over the Serious 1 plastic fantastics, somebody else to figure out how to deliver them and a third person to figure out how to fix them.

And old Shel was trying meanwhile to convince the California State Consumer Protection folks that he neither meant anyone any harm representing the McKlusky chassis as "leftovers" from AC (which they certainly were not), nor would he survive any incarceration, given his health issues, which were real. Given a vote, I would have given him a pass, if for nothing less than the years of entertainment value. They were mostly dumb-****te foreign buyers, anyway. I wonder what the SAAC guys were publishing about the knock-offs and AC in the day, anyway?

Olde Brian Angliss at AC was just designing, building and selling real nice looking quick cars, a few of which sold for £120K+ on any particularly good day when the financial winds blew manna in from Japan, Maylasia or Saudi Arabia.

Just how much do you think AC profited on each of these super-priced babies? Is it instructive to point out that SA likely never made a net penny on the entire GT-350 program?

Ah, but those are both longer, very interesting and instructive stories many here know lots and lots about, don't you guys?

[Excaliber]

289 body with 427 suspension. Referred to as a "hybrid". Currently offered by Kirkham (alloy of course).

The weight (in the case of Kirkham) is virtually the same as the 427 body style so it comes down to which "looks" better for the buyer.

Mention of a small block could easily lead to a fire storm. THAT debate still rages on. It does appear that the USA market is far more accepting of a big block than our English friends. You know it's all about those "loud" Amercians that HAVE to have everything "bigger" than most (especially if their from Texas).

Ernie

[nikbj68]

Originally posted by Excaliber



.....It does appear that the USA market is far more accepting of a big block than our English friends. You know it's all about those "loud" Amercians that HAVE to have everything "bigger" than most (especially if their from Texas).

Ernie

Not entirely, Ernie. For a start, you could fit all of the roads in Britain, end to end, into Texas seveteen times over, and still not touch 2 borders but it would cost you the GDP of a small nation to drive your 7 litre Cobra to the papershop & back over here! (I`m figuring that an IMPERIAL gallon of regular unleaded will cost us here $6.50...... so you`re talking $260 to fill a 40 gallon tank.... @15 mpg gives you $2.30 per mile!!!!!!!!!)
HHMMM. Yes a 427 is vulgar!!!!

[Excaliber]

Dang!!!! $260 to fill you tank? I'll take a small block please.

Ernie

[nikbj68]

HAHA! Now you see when we talk about P**** envy , we actually mean PETROL That was only on regular, Super unleaded would be $285! What would it cost you ?

[Excaliber]

"Petrol" in Hawaii is ALWAYS higher priced than the "main land". I've NEVER seen it below $1.50 a gallon. Currently it is $2.05 or so.

....but mostly I drive a company car and THEY buy the gas so I just fill it up and GO! My personal cars? It's an island, I aint going very far anyway!

Ernie

[What'saCobra?]

Naw, it isn't a 289 body with a 427 suspension, it is a lightweight 427 body with a 427 suspension and upgraded chassis, drop dead right now brakes and a raging stonking twisting snarling small block (351 is a "small" block, even at 7 liters?).

This isn't a hybrid, it was a standard line item, special order, from AC under Brian's tutelage. You can look it up in a book.

It is only "small" in nomenclature, that is, not an FE. The block weighs 90+ £'s less and the combined ally heads weigh 50+ £'s less. Just imagine the whole extra person sitting on your front springs and pulling to the outside of any turn, increasing understeer, reducing accelleration times, lengthening brake distances, etc.

You still have proper modern dual wishbone coil spring/shock system, big fenders for big tires, proper radiator sizes for high HP engines...

Cheaper, lighter, faster...

Smaller, lighter, more ratio alloy transmission...

Oh, yeah, did I say cheaper...much cheaper...?

What's not to love?

--------------------------------------------------
Ps:
Certainly you know that the side-oiler changes didn't really fix the BIG PROBLEM with the FE's? Big dia crank/rod journals cause the bearing surface velocity to exceed the shear strength of the oils. Racers know this and grind the crank rod journals down (or just reselects another spec), resize the rod big end dia downwards to match, for instance, a chevy and you have an FE that spins and lives.

Do you think this (or several similar changes) was ever done during the FORD racer days using FEs? Even at Le Mans?

Oh, My! Say it isn't so...they wouldn't dare...that would be (shhhh!)..illegal.

Do you know the dia of the Chrysler hi-po drag racer rods from the middle sixties? Why would that be an interesting data point?

[PDHse]

Great thread, really enjoyed it.
Mr Legate just wondering in your book Cobra , the first edition it shows pictures of Ken Miles at Goodwood. He is watching the cobra undergoing scrutineering. I know that his car failed the scrutineering but did he actually get to drive it in practice? . Also did he ever race a cobra in Britain.

[RedBarchetta]

Originally posted by nikbj68


(I`m figuring that an IMPERIAL gallon of regular unleaded will cost us here $6.50......

Yesterday, I bought five gallons of Sunoco 110 (R+M/2 method) racing fuel for about $5.25 a gallon. I shouldn't whine anymore about this.

I then filled up the rest of the tank with 91 octane "premium" (yeah, right!) for about $2.05 a gallon. Again, I shouldn't whine anymore about this, too.

-Deano

[Trevor Legate]

Originally posted by PDHse


Great thread, really enjoyed it.
(Mr Legate just wondering in your book Cobra , the first edition it shows pictures of Ken Miles at Goodwood. He is watching the cobra undergoing scrutineering. I know that his car failed the scrutineering but did he actually get to drive it in practice? . Also did he ever race a cobra in Britain.)

Firstly, no more Mr.Legate PLEASE!! Be like other people - "Oi you" is perfectly adequate, or Your Exellency if you really must.
I am reasonably certain Ken did drive that car in practice, but I've been informed that he also practised with Willments spare car, CSX2130 (the car in the photo is 2131). As I am in regular touch with the owner of 2130, he and I would kill to lay hands on photos of Ken Miles driving that car in practice - somebody somewhere must have taken a photo. Does anyone out there know anybody who was taking photos during practice!!!!! Have contacted a few photographers, but they only covered the race.
2130 was out at Brands Hatch a few weekends ago, having a pre-season run and sounded very good.
As you may know, Shelby called for Miles to come over to the UK to shake down the Willment Cobras because Bob Olthoff complained that the handling was hopeless, so Ken was sent for to show how it was done. He drove out of the Brands pit lane and stuffed it into the bank at Paddock, having travelled some 200 yards....the handing was hopeless.

On the fuel price topic: I have had the dubious pleasure of owning 2 Chrysler Voyagers with the 3.3 engine. My first fill-up cost $110 and was good for around 180 miles if I was doing local trips. Too expensive and no brakes (how do you stop them things in the US? Or do you just have more road...)

A friend recently brought one of only 2 Ford Excursions in the UK owing to a complete lack of taste and a desire to be rid of a Trans-Am. As the fuel gauge was a tad low, he decided to fill it up and said goodbye to £150 ($276). The bad news was that it only got him 180 miles up the road! However, great fun driving around London and molesting cabs (taxis). The downside was that it wouldn't fit through the width barriers on Chelsea Bridge!

Back to Cobras! One of the 427s to escape from Frimley prior to the Lubinsky Shuffle is currently being completed as a full-race car (as a sister car to his 427 road example) and is now fitted with a 427 NASCAR side-oiler stroked to 510cu.in. with a Holley 1150 carb. It has a 13:1 compression, chucks out 680bhp and 690lb torque. It runs on 120-octane race fuel which over here costs (are you seated?) £16 ($30) a gallon. When it ran on the dyno it was drinking 35 gallons an hour. But - what a pair!!

[nikbj68]

Originally posted by Trevor Legate


Firstly, no more Mr.Legate PLEASE!! ......

Oi..Trev! nope it`s no good. SIR it is !!!
It runs on 120-octane race fuel which over here costs (are you seated?) £16 ($30) a gallon. When it ran on the dyno it was drinking 35 gallons an hour. But - what a pair!!

Bloody Hell....only a Lawyer could afford to run that! That`s 2 weeks take-home pay for me!!!!