Britain's "remarkable automotive cottage industry"

[clayfoushee]

Oops....I mispoke/mistyped earlier in reference to the heart of the Noble GT. It's Ford's DURATEC V-6 (not Vortech).

[StephenC]

WhatsaCobra:

I read your remarkable response to my last question. I actually sat down and wrote out a VERY long response. Then I realized, no one really cares. So, I decided against posting it.

My point was simply this; We have some poor guy who wins a Cobra replica and posts that info here at CC. No one believes him! He has to post make, model, chasis number, and photos. Another guy finds a 427 NASCAR engine in a garage somewhere and again CC members demand the engine be disaasembled, photos be taken from every possible angle, casting numbers, and numerous other details before they believe him.

You come to us stating you own "several Cobras" and then refuse to provide any details claiming something to do with privacy. You didn't hesitate to tell your ex-wives (who must read the posts here at CC) that you own "several Cobras", but you refuse to give any details (like that somehow now matters, you just told them you have the cars). Whether you choose to believe me or not, that's pretty unusual. Then, you call the guy who had the nerve to ask (me), a snob.

I just find it strange everyone accepts your statement without question, that's all. Maybe they're in awe of your language skills or maybe, I'm the only one here who doesn't know who you are and what cars you own. Are you Jay Leno? Carroll Shelby?

You're right, it really doesn't matter if you own the cars are not. Please accept my assurance that being a snob was the last thing on my mind. I'm not sure I even know how to be a snob. I'm just a country guy at heart who loves cars.

[Johan]

Interesting thread....
I love AC Cobras !
I love Shelby Cobras too !
George Stauffer used to have AKL 1381. ...looked good to me !

[Mark IV]

...I assure you "Whatsacobra" is NOT Jay Leno, I knew Jay and he only owns an M&L replica (plus a '65 GT350)...

Again you must take me at my word, which you may choose to trust, or not at your choice.

I do know he owned a car (CSX 3327) that was purchased by the person that owned the 427 that I bought in 1982. That person could verify this (insert X-files government conspiresy here) was buried today.

He also owned a genuine Cobra comp car. That he may or may not own any of these today is not relevant, he knows of what he speaks.

Rick

[StephenC]

Mark:

That's good enough for me.

Thanks and many apologies to WhatsaCobra. You're good as gold.

I'm Outta' here, I gotta' go eat some crow.

[Excaliber]

It is obvious "he knows of what he speaks"!

In the examples Steve sighted (NASCAR 427, "Won" a Cobra) it was not as clear in the beginning. But I think in both of those cases the two individuals WERE treated with reasonable respect considering the circumstances and in the end a good time was had by all.

Wilfer will be happy to hear I recently turned down an offer to buy a "7". 1100 cc Suzuki engine, (buzz bomb)!

Ernie

[What'saCobra?]

Thank you Stephen. The past is the past.

Though, just because somebody says I'm not Jay Leno and I used to own a few cars, that information shouldn't cause you to fold your tent. Stick up for your opinions and their basis, which was just what...exactly?

That I am unkind not to give you my inventory list? How about the keys to the house and a map? That I should be attacked by everyone, not just you?

Should you demand of me to disassemble my 427 FE SO TP, I would suggest that you file that request with the sunshine I was mentioning.

Ps: snobs rarely know they are snobs, just to let you know. They can only be detected by third parties.

But, I gather that we are all squared Jack away now and we can get back on the subjects of merit...

Trev:
I am sorry to confirm, Trev, that I did two years ago get rid of the 1959 FWE Climax 7. The motor was threatening to come apart and I didn't want another $6-7000 rebuild. You are right, they were very, very tiny cars and I could never keep track of where my feet were or were not. I had to use ballet shoes to fit in the pedal wells. I promise not to buy another one.

Fun car, though. A lot of babes thought it was "cute", so I sold it soon afterwards. I don't want to be found driving something "cute." A matter of pride, y'know?

Cobra race cars (cont'd):
Recall also that when the SCCA allowed the big block cars into Ap racing, they banished the 289 Cobra to Bp and simultaneously demanded that they remove the 4x2bbl Webers, always good for about 40 horses over the newly developed single 715cfm center pivot Holley. That restriction made it very hard indeed to beat the big blocks that ran in Ap (SCCA A production) and were well driven. Even so, unless the 'vette pilot was good, a 289 might just slip in the top three.

This Bp downgrade was purely a political move, although it had some logic. I suppose it wouldn't be "right" if the Cobra small blocks regularly whupped the big boys from Chevrolet (and FORD).... It might get Detroit riled up enough to withdraw from the Pro Series races, USRRC, CanAM and Formula A (F5000 in Erup), but often running as F6000 quite illegally. SCCA had by that time gone pro and needed the munny. Real bad.

A number of worthy drivers put Cobras into the USRRC pro series, but the cars were hopelessly outclassed by the new mid-engine designs that also utilized low drag shapes, etc.

I was an occasional pit crew gopher on Sam Feinstein's Q'ship Cobra 427 during 1971/1972 or so. You may have read that it was CSX 3009 and called "Ollie the Dragon" because it belched so much flames from time to time. Sam won the SCCA A production Championship in 1972 with a seven year old 1965 race car and an engine that had no FORD development since perhaps 1964. This was against Chevrolet big blocks and big money development.

I think that speaks wonders of the staying power of the 427 race cars, to stay a top winner for such a long time without factory development support. Shelby was nowhere to be seen. Parts were hard to get, except from AC. They stayed in there and built to order and shipped by air, if necessary, collect.

Not ever likely to ever win for such a long period again today. OK, Sam and Ed Lowther were great drivers, no question. But the car did the job and carried their big butts to many victories.

But, only Sam and a few others can tell you how lousy the Girling brakes were at the limit. The 427's would only go one or two laps with real brakes, so you had to make your moves quickly. After two laps, the brakes faded so bad you had to get used to higher than natural corner speeds and seriously time-wasting power oversteer to stay alive and block the 'vettes. You HAD to pass him before the corner, because after the initial turn in you had no more brakes and you would wack the guy.

I am not kidding, it was really silly driving around those "fabulous" Girling brakes. If you have them on your kit, it is OK by me, but don't plan on serious racing because I think they stink. We used ducts up the gazzoo and it only helped a little. We seriously considered a water drip system, but the steam noise was too obvious. And only an ijit would fail to cool the brakes down on the cool down lap, otherwise all the heat would migrate to the wheel bearings and the grease would drip out on the pits and you might get black-flagged for the next race. Use the AP's, Brembos or Wilwood, etc.

More LightWeight stuff:
You might know that some of the LightWeights had a power brake system. It was the sweetest dual master cylinder system, mounted on the drivers forward footwell face, vacuume powered and acting on BMW 750IL ventilated discs that fit inside the 15" wheels. Very excellent indeed and another reason why the LightWeight was/is easy to drive on the street. I should show pictures of it to the Kirkhams, but they probably know all about it.

Boy their stuff is nice...

Gotta get outa here..back at you guys later...

[Pete C]

This is by far the most informative and entertaining thread that I've ever read on this site. Kudos to all!

But Wilf, I thought that it was Lee Iacocca that perfected the Mustang and did so by dropping a 289 hypo in it?!

Cheers, Pete C

[Trevor Legate]

Swift response to some of the many topics raised whilst I slept in this time zone..........

MkIV

Hi, glad to know who you are now!! Yes, Jimmy Price is becoming THE British off-shore cottage industry - just look at the home page on www.gt40s.com and scroll down past the Daytonas (yawn) and stop at the piccy of a workshop stuffed with Nobles. Auto-porn. And a pic of Jimmys own car.
I am well aware that a large number of UK kit car builders have visited his premises and paid homage...........I have been invited to tag along with another company but may not be able to attend, much as I would love to (off to Italy for a little vino & pasta, my wife tells me)
To touch on the Agg/Chris Chiles driving topic - yes Chris can cartainly drive a bit. I watched Charlie when he began racing with a McLaren M1 and tended to explore that fine line between fast and insane. He did have a habit of punting fellow drivers into the kitty-litter and did not endear himself to everyone at first. He smacked the Cobra into the armco at Silverstone and when Peter saw the bill from Brian Angliss for one front wing, he banned Charlie from racing it again. But he did take it on the Targa Florio retro where the carbs caught fire, but before he could start the car and suck the flames back, the Italian marshals went mental and covered the car in foam. Charlie was incandescent and harsh words were spoken, to say the least. (You can imagine) The idiots also failed to put out the fire and quite a lot of damage was done. I suppose you were the guy who was helping Charlie up the pole when he liberated all those "Nurburgring" road signs when the circuit closed?

On the topic of how many McLarens were built at the Trojan works in Croydon. Yes, well.... makes Cobra history appear quite straight forward by comparison. I shall have to get my act together and learn how to post pics on this site - I can show you the fourth (of three) McLaren M6 road cars created by Nigel Hulme and his father, based on an M6 tub. 350 V8, ZF box and drop-dead gorgeous looks, all designed by Bruce McLaren in the 60s! They should dump their big monster supercars and put that into production. Yeah, lots of McLarens out there (and T70s)

WhatsaCobra

Glad the feathers are no longer ruffled(!) I just knew you had to have owned a 7. Sorry to hear it was "cute" i've had mine called "cool" and I tend to think that's acceptable. I promise that as soon as someone calles mine cute, it will be sold forthwith, provided you can pop a Cobra in the post in order to stem the flow of tears.....in all honesty I've not had the 7 for long. I had a deposit on one back in the 70s but my employer asked if I would like to buy the photographic studio a few days later, so - no 7. I owned, rallied and autotested a total of 5 frogeye Sprites (masochist!) and then Nigel Hulme got me onto 911s, so the 7 has arrived in me twilight years, or at least before the arthritis kicks in and I get wedged in the cockpit forever.

On the race car topic - yep the Girlings were not too clever. I recall seeing a very rare 427 turn up at Brands Hatch in the late 60s for a minor club race around the Grand Prix circuit. Having assured my friends that this was going to be worth watching, how it was going to decimate the opposition - huh! He was being lapped long before then end by little Ginettas, Chevrons, marshals road cars.....it just ploughed staight on in the bends and was slowing for Paddock Hill about half-way along the straight! I only have a very poor photo of the car and you've reminded me to find out who was driving it. It weren't Dan Gurney!

[BMK]

Interesting Posts over here.

How many Cobras makes/is "several"



Who cares - I used to p!ss over the wall in the boys toilet and became the school champion. Now I have trouble p!ssing..

I have five Cobras:

1 x red 427,
1 x silver/black 427
1 x yellow/black 427 race car
1 x black and gold race car and..
1 x full size white with black stripes,



Do I win?? My neighbour has 2126 semi trailers and 57 cars. Sorry he wins. He also lets me look and sit in them.

Oh well. Every now and get I get the Cobras out wash them and put them back up on the shelf in my office.

Look out I'm looking sideways again.

Bernie

[What'saCobra?]

Holy Dooley!

I can only imagine what a "homebush" body looks like in detail, but your pics look just fine and grouse from here.

You are exactly the kind of guy for which I have great admiration. You are doing it your way and I am sure you are having fun and are anxious to finish and hoon it about. Lots of fun is had in the planning, building and completion...but you are following the general plan of all "genuine" cobras in the world, that is, you are going to call it a Cobra and everyone can see that it is a Cobra. To me, THAT'S the definition of a Cobra, it "looks like one."

You cannot believe how much flack I get about this opinion. Everyone is so bloomin' keyed up about the investment side of our sport, which I do acknowledge has some merit and there is no reason to lose money if not necessary.

But, come on guys, there're all Cobras, just different...there is a Cobra to fit every pocket and every dream.

It is hard to get guys to consider the transcendental nature of 'Cobraness", but it is where the emotion, risk and joy of planning, building, buying, driving, selling and treasuring old memories comes from.

The driving, while very important, is not always to everybody the biggest and longest term source of enjoyment. Plenty of guys just like to design a better one or build their own. Or keep a hangar Queen all shinny and stuff.

You all know this, of course, but remember how this dude is working his buttolks off thousands and thousands of miles away from us Shelbyized Yanks, building his dreamer and griinnin like a shot fox.

Hooroo and good onya, Bernie.

[RallySnake]

What'saCobra,

"grinnin like a shot fox"

I like that one, mind if I use it?

What'saCobra and Trevor,

There has been much written and reported about Cobra's in racing events, but almost no rally history at all. I know that the Shelby Club ran the Starlight Rally for five years straight but dropped out in the early eighties. I managed to take home a trophy for that event in 1998 before it was ended in 2000.

What can you tell me about Cobras in the RAC or Monte Carlo Rallies? Every other sports car that I can think of competed in these events. Surely, SOMEBODY tried it?

Paul

[ToyCollector]

Originally posted by Trevor Legate


Back to Cobras! One of the 427s to escape from Frimley prior to the Lubinsky Shuffle is currently being completed as a full-race car (as a sister car to his 427 road example) and is now fitted with a 427 NASCAR side-oiler stroked to 510cu.in. with a Holley 1150 carb. It has a 13:1 compression, chucks out 680bhp and 690lb torque. It runs on 120-octane race fuel which over here costs (are you seated?) £16 ($30) a gallon. When it ran on the dyno it was drinking 35 gallons an hour. But - what a pair!!

Trevor, by chance was this motor sourced from the southeast corner of the US of A? I saw one being dynoed that was destined for the UK some months ago with identical numbers. As always, just curious.

[Trevor Legate]

Rallysnake:

Cobras on the RAC & Monte ? - no.
You have to understand the type of events these were. The RAC of the period was a 5 day (and night) blast through incredibly rough gravel forest tracks through Yorkshire, Wales and Scotland. No Cobra would stand the pounding, the exhausts would have been ripped off and the crew would have ended as nervous wrecks. I used to rally myself in those days (Cooper S with 1293cc three-quarter race engine) and the cars had to be ultra-strong, welded boxes with all lines inside, sump guards and all that crap. Few, if any convertibles would stay in one piece. The Cortinas, Escorts, Minis and 911s (even Lancia Fulvias) would have been way faster.
Same applies to the Monte, although that was a tarmac rally but run mainly on snow and ice. The Minis were the class act in the sixties and usually ran rings around 911s. The French had to invent rules to disqualify them - proven fact. Cobras? No chance!

Having said that of course, John Atkins entered his infamous road/race Cobra (COB6058) on the first running of the Pirelli Marathon circa 1990 (?) held around Europe and the classic mountain passes on the Swiss/Italian border. John can drive that car to the very edge of disaster and, as it was all tarmac and dry weather, just disappeared. All the other competitors entered into the spirit of the event and stopped at every lunch halt to sample the food, wine and maybe a snifter of brandy (or two) and continued on their merry way. John just blitzed all the stages. When everyone finished, they wondered who had won and were amazed that it was a Cobra - nobody had seen it, he was so far ahead.
The organisers requested he did not enter the Cobra the following year, but accepted his entry in a Triumph TR4. He arrived at the start with a broken leg following a skiing mishap. Guess what....? So yes, Cobras can win some rallies!!

ToyCollector

Not sure where that NASCAR 427 came from, but it was a proper side-oiler. I will be photographing the car soon and I shall ask.

[RallySnake]

Trevor,

Good point. Those aluminum cars were pretty fragile weren't they? I too had the problem of the sidepipes coming loose on rough terrain, but beefy brackets and solid motor mounts solved that problem.

Thank you for the glimpse into history,

Paul

[What'saCobra?]

The aluminium cars were and are NOT fragile. Just like they are not hard to drive. But, rally cars require particular preparation and driving Cobras (of all the various sorts) require seat time and practice. They are not underpowered enough to allow any numbskull to drive them at the limit, like most benign motorcars.

Side pipes on a rally car would be the dumbest thing going, since the risk of rock/roadside damage would be so unnecessarily high with such obvious and dopey exposure for the sake of a few max horsepower, usually not the issue with either a Cobra or a rally car. Max usable torque is the drivability issue on any road course, rallies included.

Before anyone bludgeons me with the Targa Florio story, consider that that was indeed a sort of rally course on typical narrow and rough Italian tarmack.

The car was set up as a full race version, with hard Konis, stiff springs, anti-roll bars and the full closed course road-racing kit. Completely insipid for the Targa.

Cars set up for the Targa are set soft, more forgiving, easy shock rebound and are usually set up by people particularly experienced with the targa's unique stress factors on the bits. Like rally cars, they are frequently set up at higher road height clearance. Road race cars are set up special too, like getting your car to run right (or rather left) on the Daytona banking with proper stagger in the tire pressures, but not enough to spoil the infield drive.

Add these set up failures and the low level of practice the Shelby team had at the Targa before (none, zip, nada, zero) and you shouldn't be too surprised it broke a part or two or three. They had no real chance due to their unforgivably low Targa experience. Look at the pictures and notice the remarkably high Ferrari and Porche ride height and roll angles. Plus, it is a very long way around and there was little practice. The Ferrari guys were there for weeks before, driving their hot street cars and learning the lines. Shelby's guys were outwitted and out-prepped. No chance.

It is true that the early Cobras broke a lot of stuff that required upgrading from the less stressed ACE Bristol standards and still do, if not crack tested. (Someday I am going to write about that here, also.)

Look, the Alan Mann team didn't win the World Manufacturer's Championship of Makes with the 289 Daytona with a fragile piece of kit, did they? Do you remember how rough the Seibring course was? Man, that was bad and the Cobras finished and won.

The completion record of Cobras is quite normal for any new and highly stressed race car. If you want a dangerous example of incompetent initial setup and design engineering, look at the record of failures of the 917 before two years of millions of dollars of testing and driver complaints. That thing was undrivable out of the box and for a long time, before it ran well and finished. Look it up in Brian R edman's book.

I would point out that all the McLarens (another English designed and fabricated car...although to sharpen the point further, the first McLaren was really an adaptation of Roger Penske's Zerex special, which was a Formula 1 Cooper (English again!) that was turned into a winning center seat 2.7 Liter Coventry Climax engine (English again!) Sports Racer Special by Roy Gane in Pennsylvania for Roger), won their races right from the start and very rarely DNF'd (did not finish). Every year they were so good everybody wanted to buy even last year's car to have at least a chance to compete or sit in the stands and watch a driver demo. It turned into a driver demo anyway, because the new car each year was 2 to 4 seconds a lap faster when driven by the ace drivers of Papa Bear Hulme and Juicy Brucey McLaren. (Take a look at Friedman's book on McLaren.)

The Cobra, while not perfect from the start, became completely unbeatable very quickly. The Cobra was a locked in winner for the American SCCA in both Ap and Bp until Shelby quit in 1967 and sat on his fat hands while the 'vettes got continuous factory help in fixing their Wolley Mammoth with more power and better brakes. Eventually, in 1972 the last 427 Cobra barely won the National Championship for Ap and an era passed. I still blame the beneign neglect of a certain vainglorious Texan for dropping the winning ball in play.

The Targa result, like the very hasty untested entry of the first 427 at Nassau, was an aberration of the record.

The cars ran like a german train schedule and arrived at the finish line on time and in the proper sequence...first.

-------------------------------------------
Aside:
A old pal of mine once asked me what the most dangerous aircraft in the world was and I guessed perhaps the X series of Edwards AFB test aircraft or the GB Specials from the air race days, but he said the J-1 Cub or something really tiny like that I forget exactly which).

I was a bit waffled and asked why.

He said it was dangerous because it had too much power!

I told him I absolutely didn't believe that it had too much power at such a low 35 or 45 or whatever hp. How could that be so, I asked with serious doubt in my friends now at risk credibility.

He pointed out that if it had about 1 less horsepower, it wouldn't have flown at all and that would have made it even more safe by sitting on the ground.

Fortunately, no Cobra of my memory ever had that problem!

[Tom Kirkham]

Originally posted by What'saCobra?

More LightWeight stuff:
You might know that some of the LightWeights had a power brake system. It was the sweetest dual master cylinder system, mounted on the drivers forward footwell face, vacuume powered and acting on BMW 750IL ventilated discs that fit inside the 15" wheels. Very excellent indeed and another reason why the LightWeight was/is easy to drive on the street. I should show pictures of it to the Kirkhams, but they probably know all about it.

Boy their stuff is nice...

[/b]

I would love to see some pictures. If you would like email the pics. Thanks for kind words.

[clayfoushee]

What'saCobra,

I got a huge laugh out of the Cub story....so true. They were/are nasty machines to get off the ground, very under- (or over depending upon your perspective) powered, and will ground-loop on you in a nano-second, but they are also part of aviation history, as the Cobra is to the automotive world.

Much like the Cobra, the Piper Cub purists will sing it's praises, as it is quite a sturdy and capable airplane, but it takes a pro to handle one properly.

[BMK]

Homebush??

What'saCobra



Homebush is a Sydney New South Wales suburb.

The Homebush fibreglass company there manufacture a wide variety of products including motor cycle and truck fibreglass pieces.

I purchased the 427 body about 4 years ago now and it sat at a Melbourne race shop for two years.

My photos show it sitting alongside two Mustang convertibles that shared factory floor space during construction.

Its on the road now and heads to the paint shop in April. Guardsman blue, white stripes, yellow over guard.

I built this to drive and have spent a lot of time setting up both a good driving position and comfort zone. This required a floor setup below the chassis, footwells, custom (stock in appearance) seats that support L3 and L4 in my lower back.

My only problem driving is that I may have positioned the seat a little low as track time leaves me a little wide on the corners as I just cannot see the edge of the nearside guard.

Yes I do Hoon. I have nearly shredded a set of rubber in under 7,000k (4,200 miles). I have been criticised (by my boss)for doing circle work in a paddock with utes and farm/ranch boys.



Have trouble p!ssing over that fence but can sure p!*s in their pockets. No trouble leaving them

Email kni-time@bigpond.com

What'saCobra

If you email Tom above c.c to me. Curiosity has the better of me.


Cheers

Bernie

[Trevor Legate]

WhatsaCobra

Just to add my agreement to all your above comments. Such a shame the Cobras did not perform on the Targa, but they were just shaken to bits - that course had pot-holes that would be considered big even in Texas. It was usually a survival of the fittest and should have qualified as a rally. Which was why Porsche always built cars just for that event (and kept the 917s away)
It is true that you can suffer from a surfeit of power. When i began rallying, I could only afford a "bugeye" Sprite (£200 if you must know) but that car with...oooh, at least 50bhp or so, could put up times remarkably close to Mini Coopers and even some quick Escorts, provided the stages were tight, twisty or rough. It had a lot to do with not using the brakes.....

The original 917 was simply evil and a triumph of power over handling. John Woolfe's accident at Le Mans is best forgotten....
However, when the aerodynamics were sorted, they were amazing - I Was There when Pedro Rodriguez got all riled up at Brands Hatch and put in a contender for the greatest drive of all time. He threw that JWA 917 around that difficult track in torrential rain faster than the cars had managed in the dry! Someone suggested calling him in and telling him it was raining. God was that wet - both my cameras jammed and parts of me still haven't dried out (sorry - too much information)