Britain's "remarkable automotive cottage industry"

[LURK]

Whaddya think? Are we going to let the Brits get away with this continental clap-trap? Not only does this article give credit to Britain for the kit car industry, it goes on to call a Cobra nothing more than a bloody "AC with fat V8."

http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/m...p?story=489623

-JT
Does this body make my engine look fat?

[Woodz428]

I'll pass on the "fat V8" comment, but the Brits have had a long standing kit car industry. Th U.S. are pups compared to the british industry. Not a comment on any quality issues,etc. just on their longevity.....as well as their long time attraction to "different" vehicles.

[REAL 1]

This is one of the reasons I didn't even bother to subscribe to the new "Cobra" magizine knowing it was be totally slanted toward the British view.

The fact is the Cobra would'nt even exist if not for Shelby. AC had one foot in the grave when Shelby showed up with his idea.

AC stole the design for the Ace chasis and body shape from a Ferrari from which the Tojero speicals were born which begot the Ace.

The 289 in the prototype could fairly be called an Ace with a V8. But Shelby developed the car in its suspension, wheel hubs, steering etc.. Not AC. Shelby further developed the 289 in FIA form and turned it into a world champ. Not AC. Shelby developed and fabricated the Daytona Coupes which again helped capture another World FIA championship. Not AC.

As to the 427, Shelby conceived it, designed it, developed it, built prototypes of it, tested it and told AC what to build based on his specs. AC fabricated as told. In fact many Brits today and then favored the 289 which they saw as more their own referring to the 427 in derrogatory ways at times such as a "289 on steroids" or "Frankenstein". Yet, interestingly the 427 is the model that seared itself into the public mind and conscious as the ultimate performance beast and muscle car and is the more valuable and desired of the two by most. Fact. The 427 is a 100% Shelby creation. But for the cost of labor Shelby wanted to build them himself. AC blew the production failing to get enough built by April '65 to qualify the 427 for FIA production. To me AC was nothing more than the "hired" tin bangers for the 427.

The Cobras are and always will be Shelby's babies.

Shelby not AC put the Cobra on the map and made it an Icon. Both 289 and 427.

Them is the facts. The truth hurts.

[computerworks]

Evan....you are hopeless.

...and now, you are mostly wrong....you do have just a 'few' facts jumbled.

...but, that's OK... we still love you.

[REAL 1]

Please enlighten me oh great one.

[computerworks]

...say "...please" again.

[G.R.]

For one thing the "prototype" had a 260 not a 289

[REAL 1]

No!

Fine.

Please again.

[computerworks]

OK...thanks:

The fact is the Cobra would'nt even exist if not for Shelby.
I agree.

AC had one foot in the grave when Shelby showed up with his idea.
Not really; understand the UK motorcar industry... they would have found a new engine supplier and continued.

AC stole the design for the Ace chasis and body shape from a Ferrari from which the Tojero speicals were born which begot the Ace.
They bought the design from the originator.

The 289 in the prototype could fairly be called an Ace with a V8.
The proto ended up with a 260

But Shelby developed the car in its suspension, wheel hubs, steering etc.. Not AC.
AC developed the entire running chassis. Shelby's team tweaked the design as components showed weaknesses.

Shelby further developed the 289 in FIA form and turned it into a world champ.
The 289FIA didn't win a World Championship.

Not AC. Shelby developed and fabricated the Daytona Coupes which again helped capture another World FIA championship. Not AC.
"..another?" They won one only in 1965.

As to the 427, Shelby conceived it, designed it, developed it,
Ken Miles?

Shelby built prototypes of it, tested it and told AC what to build based on his specs.
AC fabricated as told.
OK

In fact many Brits today and then favored the 289 which they saw as more their own referring to the 427 in derrogatory ways at times such as a "289 on steroids" or "Frankenstein".
Conventional wisdom knows the 289 was a better race car. Shelby never campaigned a 427.

Yet, interestingly the 427 is the model that seared itself into the public mind and conscious as the ultimate performance beast and muscle car and is the more valuable and desired of the two by most.
The ultimate hot rod...yes. More valuable=less made

Fact. The 427 is a 100% Shelby creation.
Yup

But for the cost of labor Shelby wanted to build them himself.
I believe by the end of 1965, CS was less than in love with the 427 project

AC blew the production failing to get enough built by April '65 to qualify the 427 for FIA production. To me AC was nothing more than the "hired" tin bangers for the 427.
AC built the cars to a release schedule...and met that schedule. By April 1965, Shelby had only finished and sold SIX cars.

The Cobras are and always will be Shelby's babies.
Agree

Shelby not AC put the Cobra on the map and made it an Icon. Both 289 and 427.
Agree

[Excaliber]

Well for one I take exception with the idea that AC "stole" anything from Ferrari. Ferrari "inspired" a great deal of changes across the board in the automotive world in the late 40's early 50's. Which is NOT to say anybody stole anything from them.

When Ford has a better idea you can bet Chevy will not be far behind in applying it to their models. Heck that ALWAYS been true in virtually every area of the industrial revolution.

Without doubt: Shelby kicked the AC up a notch with the modifications required to go "racing" and DID create the "Cobra" in the end.

Ernie

[casaleenie]

Originally posted by REAL 1



Them is the facts. The truth hurts.

[/b]

Evan,

After reading Ron's rebuttal I guess it does hurt!!!

OUCH!

[Excaliber]

Hmmm,,,,, Ron makes some good points, but it's a subtle thing by and large. Not earth shaking.

AC would have found an engine supplier and continued on? Maybe, I guess we'll never know for sure. AC with one foot in the grave? Yeah I think thats accurate considering the circumstances at the time.

Understanding the "English" motoring concept I would agree that it was "likely" AC would have found an engine supplier. Why? Because there an OLD English company and had "tradition" working in their favor.

427 more valuable because less made? Hmmm,,, not sure about that, all though the logic is flawless. Americans LOVE their Hot Rods. The mere fact that the 427 had blistering accelleration was enough to secure it's place in USA automotive history. And THAT is why I think it demands a higher price primarily.

Evan aint "that far off" in the end!

Ernie

Edit: So who's idea was it to use that stupid worm and ball thing for the steering? AC might have designe the whole thing, but Shelby made it strong enough to go racing!

[REAL 1]

Ok. Its late.

1. AC was in financial trouble. Whether they would have found another engine is speculation.

2. I used the term "stole" loosely. Should have said taken from.

3. Ok. Wasn't thinking. 260 was the first.

4. Shelby developed the car through his racing program. My understanding is that resulted in strengthend hubs, better suspension and steering ie. rack and pinion vs. worm and sector.

5. Oh, come on. That SOB Ferrari stole the first one and you know it. It should've been two.

6. See above. Really should have been two world championships.

7. When I say Shelby I am referring to all his talented staff, Miles, Remington et. als. Also Arning from Ford who designed the 427 Chasis.

8. Lets be fair now. The 427 never had the chance. It had a better chasis and better suspension. Better looking too.

9. While less 427s were made there is no question they are the more popular of the two. Witness the replica market. No doubt about it that when people think Shelby Cobra most think 427. Its better looking too. Oh. Already said that. Sorry.

10. Oh. Production Proschmucktion. Who cares about this one anyway.

In the end the most important point that we both agree on is that if not for Shelby there would be no Cobra and it wouldn't be the automotive icon it is today.

[computerworks]

Originally posted by REAL 1


In the end the most important point that we both agree on is that if not for Shelby there would be no Cobra and it wouldn't be the automotive icon it is today.

Yup...that's the key point... and we do agree on that.

[Excaliber]

Late? Heck it's only 6:45 pm, I'm just getting warmed up!

Ernie

[What'saCobra?]

Didn't Bob Negstad design the suspension/chassis for the 427 as a FORD employee, not SA?

Wasn't John T paid £3 or so for each car sold as an outside designer for the AC design they purchased?

Didn't the previous FORD Zypher 6 cylinder Ruddspeed Special AC race cars have the complete "cobra" shape, including the new nose shape without the moustache?

Didn't FORD require CS to use the NASCAR 427 lump for the Cobra, when they were initially interested in the car, rather than the all alloy 390 CS wanted if he couldn't get the free chevies?

Didn't AC's Hurlock and Iacocca's FORD give CS FREE credit, shipping and development for their chassis and engines?

Didn't Zora Duntov freeze CS out of 283/327 engines, despite CS's personal preferences to use them?

Didn't Chris Craft create a spectacular two+ seat COBRA speedboat in the late fifties?

Didn't CS take a $mill contract from FORD to bail on all the Cobras in 1967?

Didn't AC do the engineering drawings for the new 427 body shape to envelop the Negstad designed chassis?

Didn't CS see transplanted chevy powered Aston Martin specials (alloy bodies, superleggera steel tube chassis, Salisbury independent rear axles, chevy engines, T-10 transmissions, Girling disc brakes, etc) win races in CA during the late fifties and early sixties and copy the concept with a cheaper fabricator that trusted his credit and enthusiasm?

Didn't Pete Brock's personal design talent bring SA the world championship with the Daytona coupes?

Didn't Pete retain those designs?

No man is an island unto himself, particularly any champion. Many, many people have contributed to the COBRA successes in the past and today. We can look it up in a book somewhere.

Even today CS is quite properly ready to defend Ken Miles' driving/development talent for input on the 427, though not much is said about the Negstad designs and the developmental testing FORD did under him.

Inquiring newbies want to know!

The rest of the story... ;-)

[What'saCobra?]

Didn't the SCCA require that all 289's become Bp Cobras, remove their 4X2bbl Weber Carbs and only use a single Holley to keep the 289's from wiping the big block butts of FORD AND CHEVY at places like LimeRock, Thompson and other tight tracks?

Were some racers using factory prepped 325's rather than 289's?

Were Guerny Westlake heads disallowed in SCCA to again prevent "289's" from big block butt busting?

Were top winning SCCA 427's using tunnel port FE engines and were you all able to find one?

Did any 427 ever win a single FIA race point?

What's so great about 427's?

Sort of like Dolly Parton, I guess wretched excess stimulates the glands.

[MysteryTrain]

Whats'a -

You brought up good points up until the "what's so great about 427's" question. (nice effort to stir the pot, though)

The 289s were better race cars, there is no doubt. However, wins alone do not an icon make. There are plenty of boxers with better career win loss records than Muhammad Ali, but does anyone remember them? Who is the greatest of all time? Vincent VanGogh only painted for 7 to 9 years of his life. His are the most valuable paintings in the world. Productivity and statistics are not necessarily part of the "greatness" equation.

If you want stats, though, I think the drag racing credentials (wasn't it CAR magazine that ran the legendary 0-100-0 times in a 427 that took 20 plus years to break?) will do.

And oh yeah, (to steal a line from Evan) did we mention how much better the 427 looks?

You don't ask an icon for its resume`.

MT

[Excaliber]

It is a fact in life that often it is ONE man who takes the credit for a job well done. HE was the spark plug. He rallied the team. Without the coach, the football team aint going to the Super Bowl.

In this case the "man" was Shelby. End of story.

The 427's are the coolest looking thing on the planet!

Ernie

[nikbj68]

Just to harp back to the AC issue, The Ace wasn`t the firm`s 'bread & butter', and had Shelby not put the V8 into the Ace, it would have undoubtedly carried on as a 'nice' sportscar probably with the Ford straight six until the end of it`s life.There was never the quest for 'Too much is enough' so it would never have reached the heights that Carroll took the Cobra to.....but had AC & Shelby not got it together, would there have been anything like the Cobra? What else was there to consider at the time? Healey...nope. Jaguar....never gonna happen. MG....don`t even go there!
As far as it goes,AC presented Shelby with a complete,well sorted car, for the job it had been built to do.(AC/Bristol power!) The move to rack & pinion was an obvious neccesity, and when things broke under race conditions, they were uprated & modified,which, had there been a more powerful engine option during AC`s development, would already have happened. Ford shifting focus to the GT40 took away the possibilty of seeing what the 427 was really capable of, but a well sorted leafsprung 289 was always a circuit winner, just not a drag racer.(Although that said, the John Woolfe 427 that held the 'fastest production car' Guinness Record 1967-`83 did it in 4.2 seconds and CS2131[289] would do it 3.9!!!)Shelby/Ford never built a Chassis, All cars arrived 'turnkey minus' to Shelby, making AC more than 'tinbeaters', All cars were made with an AC chassis number & had AC badges, regardless of whether they ended up 'tagged & badged' as 'SHELBY COBRA' They are AC`s. I don`t understand the need to write AC out of history to 'big up' Shelby`s part in the Cobra story......It wouldn`t have happened without EITHER party. Why can`t we just put this to bed saying 'WE' made a motoring legend?



p.s. 289FIA looks best