SPF TKMinus vs. PMS TKMinus vs. 427 Cobra Turnkey

[Dream Master]

Flyin, You seem to be a pretty fart Smeller. Don't bother studying for your urine test.

Truly amazing how some people always seem to find facts, while others seem to say "don't baffle me with the facts my mind is made up" or "My car is the best no matter what because I decided on it and I can't be wrong".

Lets face it, the worst of the frankenstein Kit cars still make their owners happy, probably even more than the guy with the best of the Shelby/Kirkham ally car.

robbsnk, You will enjoy whatever you decide on, those are all good cars. Freddie has a valid point. Just as with a Backdraft, it is a good car at a good price, but it takes another $7000 or so in add ons to compare to a SPF standard equipped car. Just as a 57 Chevy Business coupe was a good car, a 57 two door hardtop was more equipped. Biscayne/Impala?

[Hydramada]

Sorry to jump on the bandwagon here but I think that some additional math errors that need correction.

* places tounge firmly against cheek and grabs a calculator *

Numbers reported on www.premiercobras.com/specs.htm under Perfomance:

0 – 60 MPH 4.4 Seconds
0 – 100 MPH 9.8 Seconds
Standing ¼ mile 11.9 Seconds at 116 mph
60 MPH panic stop 3.9 Seconds in 186 feet
0 – 100 – 0 MPH 13.1 Seconds
Skid pad .96 G
Nominal economy 10 mpg city and 14 mpg highway


So
0 - 100 = 9.8 seconds
+
60 - 0 = 3.9 seconds

That adds up to 13.7 seconds to go from 0 - 100 and from 60 - 0.

BUT

0 - 100 - 0 = 13.1 seconds



But in the famous words of Flyin Freddie.........

But....I don't know....I could be wrong....

[Flyin_Freddie]

I got this message from bobl...I guess from PMS...tonight in my private email.

"...suggest you come to KC.....then you can be in the 10%. BUT!!! Maybe, just maybe, you'll see what AMERICAN labor and AMERICAN design and AMERICAN engineering can do. Plenty of others have seen...and by the way, I've looked at SPF. Its a very good Cobra shaped hotrod - one of the better ones to be sure. But as I stated 90% of YOUR FELLOW SPF owners have said if they had it to do over.,....and a few of them have. "

Okay, Bob...I'm in SCOF...the Superformance Owners Forum....and we pretty much know each other and all the Superformance owners that have sold their cars and moved on to something else. Pray tell...just give us TWO of the names who have said "...if they had to do it over again...and a few of them have." We'd sure like to verify your claims. That is IF you can provide those names...I'm thinkin' you can't. With over 1700 SPF cars out there, your 90% figure adds up to 1530 owners who have said "...if they had to do it over again.". But...there I go again, using my calculator that seems to work far differently than yours. C'mon, Bob...quit bullsh!ttin' us...you think we're gonna let your claims go unchallenged...?

If you can give names, then we'd probably all know them. But...to make your 90% figure true...you'll have to provide at least 1,500 names! Y'see, 90% of 1700 is 1530...and...well, hell, Bob....we'll spot ya 30 names just 'cuz we're in a charitable mood this mornin'...it bein' so late and all.

What I can't understand is why you would make such a claim publicly, and then try to defend it privately...? Could it be you've something to hide...? Moreover, I can't - for the life of me - figure out why you would even want to take on Jimmy Price and Hi-Tech...some of the most famous names in this industry have...and lost! You want me to name names? I can... You want a copy of Judge Zoebel's rulings...? I can provide those, too.

So...how 'bout it, Bob....care to fill us all in on your 90% figure? ...or is your 90% figure sorta like your other math, too?

Remember: It ain't braggin' if you can do it...right now all we hear is hot air.

[Goober]

Freddy and Dreamaster are both right.
No one in this industry wants to knock other manufactures. The point is some are better value for the bucks. I recently looked at several manufactures to determine which is the best. Keep in mind I have already owned a top line Cobra replica in the past before moving back to the States.
SPF offers the best engineering/bulid/ and more importantly support than most car manufactures anywhere in the world. If only the Big 3 could do it again.
Also, the owners of these fine cars are a great bunch of people. Once you buy a SPF, you become part a a family and not forgot about once you hand over the check.
Yes, I'm hooked on SPF.
Your decision has to be made on what you can afford and how fast you want to go. Hell, you can put a cheap kit car together with any V-8 and loud pipes and have fun.
Point is, any of these replicas are fun. Just park one anywhere and watch the crowd gather. They will walk past Vettes and Vipers like they are farm trucks.
Take Freddys word, watch the base price and make darn sure the extras are included. Most aren't and will send your cost over the top before you can bat an eye.
Just my 2 1/2 cents
Mark

[BANDIT 1]

The problem with this thread and the forum in general is that people get over confident about their brand of Cobra and say something they wish they hadn't. It is not uncommon for someone to think (to themselves) that I am the best at my job, or Sally is better looking then Karen. Sally may look better to Joe whom likes big breasts, but Bill may think Karen looks better because she has a model body and any more than a handful is too much.

I have said before on this forum and in public that not all of these cars were designed and built with the same goal in mind. How does one make a blank statement that a CSX Cobra is better than a JBL Cobra. Resale value, mabey? "original" looks, yes? Road racing ability, no? Crash safety, mabey? Who knows.......? What I do know is that if I wanted to do alot of road racing and didn't care about the car looking 99.9% "original" looking, the JBL would have to be at the top of my list. If I wanted a Cobra that was as "original-like" as I could get, a aluminum CSX would have to be at the top of the list.

It is in the best interest of every Cobra manufacturer to just provide the details of your product and you will find that a person shopping around is looking for exactly what you provide. By saying "our product is better", "our product is the best", "I know Karate and six other Japanese words", etc... doesn't help the potential buyer find the Cobra that he or she is looking for.

Both Premier and Superformance design and build top notch "different style" Cobra's. The people at both companies are very respectful and care about the product they are producing.

[gary osborne]

Freddie, Freddie, Freddie my brotha,

There is a term used in advertising called "Puffing". It is a reference to small, seemingly irrelivant and unsupportable claims advertisers make that almost everyone (consumers and the like) guesses is balogna. Maybe a little of that has been done here. I do not think that anyone intended to say that 90% of SPF owners had switched. That would be pure foolishness and outright lies. What I THINK was said / meant is that 90% of all SPF owners who have visited this factory have switched. First that is unprovable. Second, the claim is meaningless. IF a SPF owner was at the "Plant" looking it would likely mean that that ONE SPF owner was looking for something different already for WHATEVER reason. He or she would hardly be "representative" of SPF owners making any ratios offered totally irrelevant even if accurate. Maybe he or she wanted something faster and prettier. Maybe they wanted a junker to slam into the walls at the track. Maybe looking for something to cut in half and make a couch from. Who knows? The other missing fact is how many. If ten came in and nine bought that would be 90% but I don't think 9 out of 2000 total SPF owners/drivers is meaningful. If 10 came in and 1 bought and 8 others came really really close to buying, maybe one could say 90%. Again, who knows?

The bottom line is that while owners of these cars (regardless of manufacturer) should be able to say whatever it is they think without fear of retribution (i.e. BB vs SB, Red vs Blue, My Cobra can beat up your Cobra), --- manufacturers better be prepared to back up the "Mine is Best" comments and leave the "puffing" at home. Owners bragging is just pride of ownership. Manufacturers bragging is probably bad business tactics on a free public forum. Want to brag? Buy an ad, pay by the word and say whatever ya want. Just watch out for libel and crossing the "Truth in Advertising" line.

It seems to me (Look out -- here comes another unsuppotable and uninformed OPINION) that most of the manufacturers and dealers that use this or similar forums to "sell" their products are typically new comers trying to grab a piece of the pie and squeeze some free advertising out because they aren't making enough money to keep their heads above water. Typically, these businesses dry up, blow away in the wind and are forgotten until the next start-up comes along who THINKS they have built a better mousetrap. Every once in a while, one is right and knocks the cover off the ball. Here's to ALL the companies hitting home runs and doing it with class.

[StephenC]

Gary:

You can be the nice guy and call it "puffing" if you want, I call it deceptive, especially if what Fred says is true. Comparing apples to apples is one thing, comparing products that are apparently very different and giving the impression they cost about the same is hardly above-board. I am still waiting for a PMS response to Fred's post.

I expect OWNERS of other makes of replicas to take shots at SPFs (and other brands) here at CC. That's all part of the "game" we play and supporting the car we went with. But, when someone closely affiliated with another manufacturer such as a company rep does it, it's taken a whole different way (remember the "Your car is an embarassment" ad by the Shelby folks?).

That's one of the things that makes the Kirkham's such a class act. I have never seen them say anything negative about another brand of car. Maybe, they have, but I haven't seen it. Every time one of the Kirkham's mentions SPF or another car it's always a positive comment. That's how you earn respect from the guys who own those cars.

PMS may make an excellent product and it may be better than an SPF. But, just the fact they chose SPF to compare their product to tells me alot about the quality of an SPF. And if it really does take $10,000+ to make a PMS truly comparable to an SPF, then the choice really is a no-brainer. I won't even begin to tell you about the value of being a member of the SPF "family". That's a whole different subject.

So, best of luck to the PMS guys. They may make a first-class car, now all they have to do is learn how to market it with equal class.

Just my thoughts...............

[MidOHasp]

whoo, man, i'm gettin' tired just reading this stuff!

You have to ask yourself, "Do I want to join a family that stabs backs?"

OK that's way oversimplifying it and maybe a little overly dramatic as well, but like Steve said... You never hear the Kirkhams bashing another manufacturer or throwing out false claims.

And you know, I think "puffing" is okay if you are paying for your time. Classy advertising is obviously welcome on CC. But, to be here for free because the wonderful people who run this thing let us be here for free, I think immediately places a restriction on what you should be saying.

The people here with 8 posts (hell, with 120 posts or 1200 posts, depending on the subject) are very impressionable. If someone comes in and says "Hey, I'm looking at SPF and PMS, any recommendations," the most they should hear back from Bob or from Dean Rosen or Jim Price or someone is...

"Come see for yourself. I think you'll be really impressed with our stuff. The other guys make a hell of a product, too. But I highly recommend a visit to the shop."

I think everyone's been afforded the right to post a message like that. But to take advantage of a free forum and skew facts and numbers to sway a new guy toward your replica, I think that's a little off the charts.

And you know, if you advertise here (and pay for it), then let that ad do the talking!!! Come in and say "hi" just so the new guy gets the feeling that you're an accessible person, but let your ads do the talking - and let your vehicle owners support you.

Just my $.02

[ROBSSNK]

You do not know how great it feels that all of you care out there to help me make my decision.

This is a great site. See, you have made your decisions and how you came to them is what I am getting out of all this.

I thank all members for their posts. For pointing out things in posts.

Now, I can weigh what truly I care about and make a decision.

I like that SPF owners talk about the family, nothing like family. Also, it is nice to keep Americans working. I have family in KS so helping that economy out is important. But also keeping employees employed in S. Africa is important too. I mean they have familes and kids too. I have kids. Kids being deserve to be fed whether American or African (that's just my opinion).

I have seen many SPF's and I am always wowed by everything about that car. Have not seen the new larger hood so that will be interesting. I wil lsee the PMS cars this summer. And I guess then I will have a better idea of what I want.

All this talk has made my decision clearer. From the beginning of my research (years ago) on buying a replica SPF was there. PMS is new and from what I read comprable car (price aside) so I have to consider them (as this is my dream car I will look under every rock and make every analysis). Still if I take a step back and look at my overall research, the SPF is constantly on top so maybe that is my answer.

I recently bought a new TV and had it narrowed down to two (wife didn't help) so I know she won't be able to with the Cobra (hahaha, I inedvertently typed SPF instead of Cobra so maybe my mind is made up). But still after I decide, she will have to approve. Knowing her, I think she would like the Family and support available in California, specifically the bay area.

Anyhow, I did not mean for this thread to ruffle feathers but at the end if we are all better educated, then it was worth it.

[Flyin_Freddie]

Hey...I know you didn't mean to ruffle feathers...no problem on this end. But, known to you or not...your inquiry served to point out some issues to other potential owners...issues that unless a newby (such as yourself) are aware of, they may bite you in your asp.....so to speak.

One of those issues is a "level playing field". And potential owners who come to Club Cobra looking for information deserve nothing less if they are going to make up their minds for themselves. Brent bills Club Cobra as "The Largest Independent Cobra Site in the World", or words to the effect. But, when a replica manufacturer comes to the forum and presents blatantly false data....things like "Why would you buy a such-n-such, when my product is not only better, it's cheaper"... well, that just sticks in everyone's craw....and when you pick on MY brand of replicar, then I take it personally. Of course, there may be a reason why they all use Superformance as a reference mark...I don't know, but I have my own suspicions....

To say PMS is less expensive than an SPF replicar may be true. But, we're not comparing apples and apples here. In fact....we're really comparing hamburger and filet....and there's really NO COMPARISON. The items I pointed out that are standard on an SPF for your $39.9K, appear to be 'options' on a PMS replica. And, if you want to level the playing field so we can compare 'apples to apples' then one must add the additional options to the PMS to level the field. And according to their own web site, the options are priced as I indicated....which brings their replicar roller to the bottom line of over $50K...and you'd still have to put an engine and drive train in it! Try as he might, Bobl still hasn't refuted that comparison...even though he has taken the time to reply directly to me offline - he still didn't refute my contention that to make his PMS car equitable to an SPF, it would be more expensive than an SPF.

Then someone else posts that PMS performance times and measurements don't exactly add up.

And, since I'm a member of the Superformance Owners Forum and know pretty much all the other guys/gals on the forum, I have a problem with Bobl's "90%" figure.

Bottom line is that none of PMS' math seems to work like math in other parts of the country. PMS may indeed make a fine replica, I don't know....but, what I do know from what I've seen is that they seem to 'stretch the truth' (...or practice 'puffing') a little from time to time...and I think potential owners and newbys such as yourself deserve far more than that when they come to Club Cobra looking for truthful, unbiased information....and, put plain and simple, PMS is not providing that kind of information.

Based on what I've read here, if I were in the market for a new replica, I'd elect to exclude PMS from my list right off the git-go.

And...based on my own and others ownership experiences with Superformance cars...I would indeed place them on my Oh-so-short list.

Tell ya what, let's let you see for yourself....come to Double Venom Spring Fling in June in London, Ohio. You'll get a chance to see virtually every Cobra-replica manufacturer's cars there...two, three, and sometimes more of most...but, certainly just about one of everything. Not only Superformance, but Unique, ERA, Shell Valley, Lone Star, Kirkham, Shelby, RUCC...hell, you name it...someone will be driving one of just about everything. Then, without the manufacturers boastful claims echoing in your head, you can talk to each owner and ask him/her what they like/don't like about their car....and also inquire about ownership experiences before, during, and after the sale, and so on. There's no better place to see as many Cobra replicas in one place at one time than at DVSF. Plus, you'll get a chance to meet a lot of the folks that regularly post here on Club Cobra...and who knows? but you may even get a chance to share in the parking lot madness that takes place each night...BUT...stay away from the Capitol Area Cobra Club boys...them boys ain't right, I'm tellin' ya....they just ain't right in the head! Plus, you'll have no problems getting a ride with most anyone you may ask, so you can evaluate each model for yourself.

Holler if you need more information...better yet, use the Search function here on CC and look for 'DVSF'...you'll find a wealth of information.

Hope this helps...take it light...and let us know if we can help you decide. I've already admitted I'm an SPF bigot, so you know what I'm going to say... But, we hope we'll all be able to help you distinguish the truth from the vaporware...

[HIQ]

I would recomend that anyone looking to purchase a Cobra spend 6 months here at CC reading every post they can find. This is a crazy industry and you don't want to purchase the "wrong" car! Educate yourself as to the many options you have and then go shopping.

[Fake Snake]

Unlike the old days in the "Kit Car" industry, no matter what decision you make, you have so many resources at your finger tips to make things right. In the old days, you were just frelled if you weren't a man/woman of means! As mentioned, you've got a great support group out here and I'd venture to say that even a competing manufacturer might help to work out encountered problems that the another manufacturer would not take responsibility for. It might cost some $, but you are not likely to be dead in the water, like days of old!