Seeking an AC 289

[Mark IV]

...when I sober up I will comment more......

BTW, one of the signs of the apocolipse (sp) was last time in Jolly "ole at the local when I saw all the youth ordering BUDWIESER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the land of real beer, these kids were falling victim to the advertising and buying mouthwash to drink!!!!!

Sad, very sad....I really liked the local brew in Weybridge, Fairey Meaux or something like that sold in the free house pubs....

Rick

[Trevor Legate]

FAIREY Meaux????????????

How dare you, Sir! That will be FRIARY Meaux if you please, vicar.
Cheers.

Seriously, we do have better beers than that stuff - such as Speckled Hen, Spitfire, Bishops Finger.....I could go on but as I rarely touch the stuff. As you say, the dreaded Bud is just fizzy-pop but can be pleasant on our one day of summer. It ain't beer tho!!

I trust you will sober up soon - good luck

[Mark IV]

.....I learned to just ask "barman, a pint of your best bitter, if you please" and that the way to tip was to hand it directly to the server and inform them "this is for yours..." as money left on a table was thought to left in error!

Had some excellent lunches in roadside pubs an the way to and from Weybridge to Brian's house on the South shore.

Rick

[Trevor Legate]

Originally posted by What'saCobra?


PS:

Trev

That silver color you like is called Jaguar New Tungsten. I just looked at the data plate.

It is fantastic.

Whatsa....

So that would be Jaguar New Tungsten (Jag 775) paint that looks even better set off with a smart tan interior piped in grey. So its no longer running with engine no. MF118693?

OK - I have an AC Registry and I'm not afraid to use it. I was reminded of this color combination when I saw a very attractive Carrera 4S in the same color scheme a few days ago. Nice - very nice. A class act in fact. Even a Kirkham would look the business in that scheme. There's a thought. Oh well, one day.

[What'saCobra?]

HA! I thought so! You've got a copy of some, at least. Great.

You are TOO kind. Thanks for your discretion. No pun, thanks. Keep the balance between your knees, old chum, or Finland's joy will 'ner see light of day though legatium eyeballs.

Yup, i would sorely like to get together enough interest to get David Kirkham et al to do a line of AC-type "289" Sports. His engineering upgrades, fit and finish are the bee's knees, IMHO. Of course, it would have to be aly unpainted for me. Punched from pure aly-clad unobtainium and polished regularly by my slave concubine.

Did i tell you i used to fly an all aly aircraft? In fact, they nearly ALL were all aly. Engines, fuel tanks (OK, a few of the bigger and better had bag liners inside the tanks), control surfaces (OK, a few were covered in either cotton, ceconite or magnesium and very little plastic (OK, a few had naugahide [you ever catch a nauga and skin him?] interiors and Royalite molded surfaces on the panel, window and door surrounds.) Never flew any that weren't aly engines, though.

Cars are mostly still a little behind the times (well, i have seen the NSX and a few comp. Ferreri), but an all aly Kirkham would perhaps finally satiate my Cob lust? Certainly the famous and "original Shelby's" are not enough, unless they are reworked so much that most knowledgable folks (and perhaps me, myself and i) would gag at the modifications, innovations and habituations.

AKL is just fine of course, for most humanoids, but it needs to lose another 200 or 300#'s. -100# on the engine, -40#'s on the tranny/driveshaft, -40#'s on the 3rd member (axle to the newly initiated), -30 #'s on the bumper sets and perhaps another -20 #'s from the interior. But, then it would look pretty klugie and not a pure hot streeter. Better to start fresh with a stripper, say wot?

Of course, you know a 2 liter Lola 212 or Chevron B16 is mucho faster out of the box on any day, don't you? 300+HP, monocoque aly tub and 525 kg can't be all wrong! But, they are complicated to put on the street. Not impossible, just complicated.

Wonder if i should write the boys?

[What'saCobra?]

Actualy, the tan seats are piped with a more taupe color.

The MF (Mathwal Ford) 302 was "gifted" to AC by your truly under the reorganization, because they were not going to finish the obligation on the new 289 without more moola and they (Price Waterhouse) lusted after the hot 302 to complete another obligation. Screwed again by the fickle finger of fate?

That 289, by the way, contained an original engine from a real Shelby 289 that had a power change years ago and was sourced by Dave from Roush to Brian, if i recall the record correctly. It is still in Brit, but stashed quietly by others, not me. Rarely sees the light of day, i understand.

More's the pity, wot?

[Trevor Legate]

Ahh yes, fear not, Mom's the word and that. The enemy might be watching and the ol' legatium eyeballs would love to stay intactum. Anyhow, all sussed many months ago (never leave chassis numbers) but no fear - nobody reading this thread anyhow!

Indeed, have witnessed many a giant-killing act by the awesome Lola 212 and Chevron B16. Outrageous speed and amazing handling. If memory serves, somone did attempt to legalise his B16 for the road, but surely there is a rational alternative - do we not come back to the proverbial Noble? About as close as one can get and live to tell the tale?

We can but hope and pray that the Kirkhams are tempted to venture into the realms that the AKL started to explore. I have a Good Feeling since they seem to be on the ball (having met Tom in Germany - Hi Tom!! please read this) and I would have thought the temptation to build a Superior Product might prove too strong. I may be very wrong, but we can hope. I think you should get in touch and do a little polite pestering. There is much more to life than 7-litres! You know your subject and they can be taught. Tell 'em I sent you!!!! (not that it will help in any way...)

I remain, Sir, your obedient servant.....

[Dominik]

sorry,

haven't rear it all, but weren't most - if not all - british replicas built after a MK3?

RAM, DAX, ...?
I had a RAM, wide body but no fender flares.

Dom

[Trevor Legate]

It is true to say that a lot of the early UK replicas were built 'in the style of' the 289 body, but each car seemed to have its own variation on the theme. The Unique Autocraft Python was another with 289-style rear but the overall appearance was more 427.

The rear section of the RAM was more 289 but the front, with bonnet scoops etc, was more 427. Also a lot of the moulds were taken from 427s and 'modified' and rumour has it that the very first Dax body was taken from the Arntz, which in turn.........on so on. The Dax bodies are now a variation on the theme. I could run around with a tape measure but have no intention of doing so. Boring.

However, all the underpinnings are so different that the shape of the body hardly matters. No point in having a car that looks like an AC289 if it does'nt drive like one. That then rules out all the above.

Trevor

[What'saCobra?]

Indeed.

While i am a real supporter of nearly all the attempts at continuing the Cobra mystique in the many years after SA abandonned the effort, one complaint has survived regarding many of the attempts.

Most of them were ill-handling beasts and did not reproduce either the svelt sweetness of the 289 or the brutish accuracy of the 427. Many many used such cheap and dumbly chosen componentry for their underpinnings and resulted in the finished kit resembling a mere caricature of its inspiration.

A few were dedicated to the quarter mile traps and had good rear end systems, but handled like dogs in the real world contry lanes.

But, despite their sometimes frail and wobbly results, they will all be forever in my graces because they kept the flame, as Peter Brock is wont to say from time to time. Peter knows all the details about how CS despised "those %&^$@! copycats" but also knows how the kitters made today's popularity possible. (He, of course, also deserves the accolades for his big time contributions and his current work on the new coupe.)

After all, could the Kirkhams do such magnificent work without the market established and expanded by the kitters and the release of dear Poland from fifty years of slavery?

[Trevor Legate]

Thank you Whatsa - precisely what I meant to say, if I had more time to gather my thoughts.

The earlier repleekas were basically a variation on a theme of c**p, but most have now settled down to build a pukka motor. However, even if one were to step from one directly into any of them and into, shall we say, a Kirkham (or MkIV Lightweight of course) its a diffence between night and day. Strange but true, I've done it. One of the first kit demonstraors I drove looked good, had a big noisy engine but decided to go sraight on at the first corner, while I was happily applying left lock. If I wanted a car that went in different directions to the steering, I'd drive a Lada.

As you point out, these creations kept the faith whilst others went off to do "other things" and were happy to turn their back on that "crappy little car with the ****** buggy springs". Just a shame that those certain people have decided to ignore that fact. At least Peter Brock can admit to it, thank goodness.

And speaking of the Brock coupe, I have just become the first person, other than the two dealers, to move one under its own power in the UK (one for my gravestone). Well, I say drove - I parked it and moved it around for photographic purposes!! Mind you, its enough to get my interest - what an engine. Looking through a camera, you realise just how good the profile and the shape of the roof/rear window is. Great seats, great driving position, great most things! Not convinced by the lack of external door handles - we locked the keys in immediately, so always carry a spare. Hmmmm. Such minor quibbles aside - some car!!!

I wonder if the Kirkhams ever realised that they would set Poland on the road to economic recovery? Wonder what they will do for an encore? Or do I exaggerate slightly?

[G.R.]

Guys thanks for the Cobra "history" regarding the AC--learn something new all the time about this legendary auto.
SB only way to go even the SA people didn't like the handling or performance of the BB.

Interesting to hear from those that were closely associated with AC "in the day".

Hope you have a great day today and everyday

[What'saCobra?]

Thanks Gar.
Trev is very with it and not much AC etc. escapes his steely gaze.

Actually the 427 chassis and handling is pretty pukka good. Ask Sam Feinstein, who won the SCCA National A Production Championship in 1972 with his 1965/6 427, that both SA and FORD had thrown into the dust bin of history in 1967. It took Chevrolet 6 years after the Cobra was no longer in production to keep the championship.

The problem Trev and i have been bemoaning is the the BB weighs way too much, but the leaf-spring cars are too archaic. For a while after 1967 AC built a 289 Sports which had the 427 chassis and the 289 engine. (Get Trevor Legates's book and read about it.)

Knowledgeable prople that have driven them all consider it the best handling of all the various packages from AC/SA et al. Also read up a bit on the Lightweight version of the MKIV, which is pretty much a light 427 chassis with various SB engines, most commonly the 351 for US consumption (very, very few of these) and mostly the hot Mathwal-built 302 in GB/EC (not many of these either).

Mr. T,
Just a couple of random thoughts.

No, i don't think you are exaggerating. Those two boys from Provo surely will have their encores. Because they demand to do stuff as correct as inhumanly possible and we are all limited by the investment of time and allocated casheroni, they must pick and choose their encores very carefully and follow/lead the market rather sparingly.

Viz: The FIA cars are very sweet indeed and have had a market demand, but my guess is that the car is somewhat demand limited, after this current spate of interest in ANYTHING but a 427. In the end, the ****ing buggy springs are something of a limitation, hard to get control over and are very specialist indeed. And, when you just get the engine and suspension really working, the frame flex starts to eat the alloy body...trust me...i know the hard way.

Many intelligent revisions to the buggy bugger start to make it a different car altogether, as they have discovered with the 427 mods. People start to get confused...(The capital requirements to keep all those various mod bits and standard bits shelf or near shelf available is not insignificant, even when they are NC fabbed.) But, their FIA version is fine indeed. i saw one of their early FIA's at Provo and was quite impressed.

Viz: Their current consideration to supply glass bodies. Why not? It will be as nice as could be and their's will be the best. i had the first USA glass 308 years ago and that glass was just wonderful and made the Vettes of 1976 look like poor cousins from Ester.

But, if it helps move frames and bits from stock and keeps the total entry price down, whilst upping the other bit volume, it's smart.

But, in the end, like Brian's ACE, we all want to mold something for ourselves that CREATES a market...but, invariably we will sink or swim or both. Perhaps a particular version of the 289 Sports will do it? We wish!

Yet, the handling, comfort and cost advantages of such a car have escaped notice by both AC and Shel'. They are looking too far away, the truth sits under their noses. It would use K alloy bits and engineered stuff and be available in both alloy and glass...but, sold as a 1964 copy, reproduction, clone, continuation...

AND, it doesn't have to have a 289, but certain legal advantages would accrue in some states registrations. A nice little stroked 351 or hot tamale 302/347 would suffice, as we know. Small aly blocks are getting cheaper, since there are now at least 3 casters. Available from FORD, even.

And the 289 Sports bay would also fit a 390 (should someone of the uninformed insist), with the selection of alternative front spring rates to support the rediculous additional weight. But, proper FE 427 Tunnel Port Side Oilers are very, very dear, dear. i just sold one for £16K out your way. It was very perfect and historic NOS. So, maybe a not so perfectly historic could be bot for $16K or so here, but you would have to be very careful indeed. Several vendors wll make a modern pukka one from an old block for about that money. But, a 425HP 351 is available all day for $8K! And 425HP is what a street 427 put out. A race 427 was about 485HP or so. Look at the cost and weight advantages...

Yep, that Brock Coupe you moved is as beautiful as is possible. My only concern is that they weigh too much for my taste...i read 3300#. For that weight, i would rather drive a fully engineered Z06.

Needs a diet, but i don't know how...

And, please don't knock the Lada. Yes, here in NA and GB, they are as useless as any other old FIAT, but i drove several different versions on many, many different outings in the Soviet and their disputed territories of the Baltic States. i found them to be able to start in the most frigid weather and took my abuse and the rotten roads of all seasons over about a ten year period, before, during and after the revolution. i two-wheeled a few around MocBa's back streets, the eastern Urals and up and down the cobblestones of Vilnius/Tallinn and not one ever broke or let me down. Not once.

i used to pay...9¢ a liter for Rus gaz during the late 80's and into the early 90's. But, for that matter, i used to pay 26¢ a gallon US for 102 octane for CSX 2434 in the mid-sixties.

(Don't bother, 2434 doesn't show my name as owner, for some reason. But, i've got the repair bills and registrations.)

[Trevor Legate]

Oh no, was not knocking the dear old Lada. My sister used to drive one and I had some steady fun with it. They just go on for ever. The analogy I was looking for has just come back - I was thinking of the early Suzuki SJ (Samurai) things. Drove lots of those (photographed the brochures) but live to tell the tale. Dunno how!! Slow and scary at the same time......I forgot how bad since I have driven the experiences from my mind. Horrible things, imho.

Will bear the coupe weight in imnd and check that out. They should be road legal in the next 2 - 3 weeks when the SVA hand out the 'pink slip' and Nigel is happy with the steering feedback.

[Slow8]

Hey Guys,

The Kirkhams make a 289 FIA body on the 427 car chassis. One of their employees has modified one of these cars to be 3"s wider at the hips (I think thats what it was). I do not know if this car has the fender lip or not. Is this similar to what you are talking about? The agility and tunability of the 427 chassis, with the light weight of the 289 cars. Get one of these without side pipes, role bars etc... Just a thought.

Sounds like you guys have forgotten more than I will ever know about Cobras and their variations...Thanks for sharing the info.

[Slow8]

By the way does anyone have pictures of the various fender types/styles side by side. Or pictures of the car style that you are talking about.

[Trevor Legate]

Hi Slow8

You are right, I must learn to load images onto this site. Although I've been a photographer for too many years, I have only just taken up digital. I had my first proper non-film photo session on Sunday at a small track, Croft, in the north-east of the UK where Kevin Kivlochan reunited COB6008 with its first 2 owners, Bruce Ropner and Keith Schellenberg. Must download the images soon but I now have a day in the darkroom printing racing Boss Mustangs!
6008 has the original 1964 FIA-flared arches but with a small lip added. A really great Cobra that can easily be driven either with the steering wheeel or the throttle as it has way too much power for the chassis - but that's the fun of it! The guys who raced it back then were all certifiable speed-freaks who worked hard and played harder. The stories they could tell - I only heard a few, about the early days of bobsleigh racing, about the first (and last) guy to water-ski from Scotland to Ireland (you do NOT want to do that!!) and how Bruce would drive from central London to his home in Darlington, some 220 miles, in 2hrs 18mins along a the old A1 in the days before dual-carriageways.
I must try to load some the photos - watch this space!