Another NEW CSX 427

[Power Surge]

Originally posted by REAL 1


Well, it all depends on how you look at it.

Ace was a neat little sports car. Certainly a classic. I give you all its charms.

Ask 10 average Joes on the street what an AC Ace is. Doubt the majority will know.

Ask 10 average Joes on the street what a Shelby Cobra is. Good chance 10 out of 10 will know.

Thats the difference. One is a neat little classic car the other an automotive icon. Shelby put the icon into what would have been today nothing more than what it is....a nice little classic roadster.

As to my pedals. Yup, I knew the originals had AC pedals. And yes I know my car is a replica of the orignal Cobra. No secret there. However, because its still a genuine Cobra from current generaton SAI in which CS the orignal founder and creator of the Cobra is involved I wanted the SAI pedals because its not an original and is a new generation Cobra which is more a product of SAI today. It doesn't have the AC center cap for the steering wheel either. It has the Cobra center cap. The insigna's on my car all indicate "Shelby" which is what it is. I see Carroll Shelby and SAI as instrumental in the existence of the Shelby Cobra and the AC Ace as the right platform in the right place at the right time by fortuitous circumstance. As I see it, Shelby turned something relatively ordinary into something extrodinary. Thats how I see it. You can see it differently. That doesn't mean AC isn't an important part of the orignal story. Without CS there is no Cobra and no automotive icon. Whether CS could have done it with a different platform no one will ever know.

The AC of today is far removed of the AC of 1965 just as SAI of today is far removed from the SAI of 1965. All things change with time. Whether you see that as bad or good is personal to each of us.

In the end it comes down to this. Carroll Shelby created the Cobra. AC did not. Period.

That's a great post, and I agree 100%.

Just to touch on part of what you wrote... When I was building my FFR, I was trying hard as I could to get it to look as close to the original as possible. When I realized that just couldn't be done because of design limitations, I sold it and ordered the CSX. The funny thing was after I ordered the CSX, I started looking at the few 4750 series cars that were already built. They were quite different from the originals in detail and parts, because of all the updated "better" components. My train of thought on building "my" Cobra went from trying to recreate the look of the original, to just having what I was getting in the new CSX and not wanting to change the uncorrect stuff. Why? Because the new CSX is still a real Shelby, and stands on it's own merits.

[nikbj68]

The Thames Ditton site is now offices or flats, I believe, with a plaque on the wall to commemorate the home of AC for so many years.

[Trevor Legate]

Real1 etc

This is such an old 'discussion' that it gets a bit boring after a while - I can well understand that for car nuts within the USA the contribution of AC is VERY easily overlooked/ignored since the Shelby saga has entered motoring folklore and some little bitty English car company has no place in that tale of victory.
BUT - you have to understand that my introduction to Cobra was when my friend and I piled into his Minivan and went on pilgrimage to a little village called Thames Ditton where we stood slack-jawed in front of a large glass window behind which was a guardsman blue AC289 Cobra mit de optional hardtop and wire wheels - the best thing I have ever seen on wheels. And, sorry to say, it had AC badges and no mention of Shelby anywhere. So in this country, it was an AC Cobra. In the US it was a Shelby. You say tom-ato, I say tomarto, but whichever way you slice it, it's still a Cobra, no matter what the badge. Thus the Americans cannot understand the AC thing, just as in the UK the Shelby name has only a fraction of the kudos it has in your neck of the woods. (You could write a book about it...oh sorry.) As I said before, CS knows and is happy to accept the 'joint project' concept. Other people do not.

Since then, much of the hype and hot air that has expanded the Legend has its roots in seeing the value of the cars increase (I see that an ex-team car has just sold for a sum in excess of $2.1 million - coincidence?). In the same way, the Shelby legend has been promoted for financial reasons. The winning of the GT category of the FIA Championship was ignored in 1965. (They were the ONLY works team) CS was banned from all races after Sebring and Daytona (apart from Le Mans) so was not there to see his car win the championship at Rouen. Does anyone want to know why? 'Course not. But as is commonly accepted by those in the know (huh SAAC?), the best Cobra was the AC289 MkIII. But that fails to fit the legend of the manic 427, so we'll overlook that. To coin a phrase, there are lies, damn lies and statistics, and the ShelbyACCobra story is awash with all of those.

427

Alan Turner is a fount of knowledge but, in his mid-80's is not in the best of health. I think I was the first person to talk to him in 1979, after leaving AC, and his wife was very concerned about him even talking for too long. I saw him at the AC Centenary gathering at Brooklands in 2001, now rather hard of hearing. So the chance of him crossing the Atlantic is somewhat unlikely. A great shame.

Nik

Its an office block - will drop by and get a snap asap

[BROOKLANDSSPEED]

Great posts Real , Power surge , agree with you with the modern engineering aspect of building thease in to your cobra .... if you showed a picture of an ACE to an average Joe would he think it was a cobra,? bugger me of course C/S invented the icon , the venice factory must have been the best place in space, is it still there ? i Still think that if Rudd hadnt got the spanish archer from AC .... he would have carried it through ....i spoke with Alan Turner b4 christmas , his take on the subject would be good , but C/S legend and his cars are icons , we should remain thankful he didnt bump into the guy from KFC , as we wouldnt exist .

[Nedsel]

Trevor:

Here is one Cobra afficianado who agrees that one of the nicest cars ever built was called, not a Cobra, but an "AC 289 Sports." These were the late coil-sprung chassis with 427-Cobra "narrow-hip" bodies, but equipped with 6" wire wheels and 289 Cobra engines. They were built at AC Cars right alongside the 427 Cobras to be sent to the US, but were strictly for European delivery. They are arguably better balanced than the 427 cars, as they are substantially lighter in the front end, and none other than Ken Miles said that he believed a coil-sprung chassis with the 289 engine would beat a 427 Cobra on any circuit that wasn't comprised mostly of long, straight stretches of track. In other words, having driven both, Miles felt the lighter car with the later chassis would be superior "in the twisty's" and I suspect he was right. (At least I wouldn't argue with his expertise.)

[Power Surge]

Originally posted by Trevor Legate


Real1 etc

This is such an old 'discussion' that it gets a bit boring after a while - I can well understand that for car nuts within the USA the contribution of AC is VERY easily overlooked/ignored since the Shelby saga has entered motoring folklore and some little bitty English car company has no place in that tale of victory.
BUT - you have to understand that my introduction to Cobra was when my friend and I piled into his Minivan and went on pilgrimage to a little village called Thames Ditton where we stood slack-jawed in front of a large glass window behind which was a guardsman blue AC289 Cobra mit de optional hardtop and wire wheels - the best thing I have ever seen on wheels. And, sorry to say, it had AC badges and no mention of Shelby anywhere. So in this country, it was an AC Cobra. In the US it was a Shelby. You say tom-ato, I say tomarto, but whichever way you slice it, it's still a Cobra, no matter what the badge. Thus the Americans cannot understand the AC thing, just as in the UK the Shelby name has only a fraction of the kudos it has in your neck of the woods. (You could write a book about it...oh sorry.) As I said before, CS knows and is happy to accept the 'joint project' concept. Other people do not.

Since then, much of the hype and hot air that has expanded the Legend has its roots in seeing the value of the cars increase (I see that an ex-team car has just sold for a sum in excess of $2.1 million - coincidence?). In the same way, the Shelby legend has been promoted for financial reasons. The winning of the GT category of the FIA Championship was ignored in 1965. (They were the ONLY works team) CS was banned from all races after Sebring and Daytona (apart from Le Mans) so was not there to see his car win the championship at Rouen. Does anyone want to know why? 'Course not. But as is commonly accepted by those in the know (huh SAAC?), the best Cobra was the AC289 MkIII. But that fails to fit the legend of the manic 427, so we'll overlook that. To coin a phrase, there are lies, damn lies and statistics, and the ShelbyACCobra story is awash with all of those.

Trevor, I agree that AC definitely played a major role in the Cobra. Us Americans place Shelby's part of the deal much greater than AC's. But people in Europe shouldn't act the opposite. Just because AC built all the cars over there with no help from Shelby in the US, doesn't change the fact that Shelby made the car. AC didn't come up with the idea, Shelby did. AC didn't stuff the first 260 in an Ace, Shelby did. AC didn't do anything other than supply the "Aces" that Shelby turned into Cobras. From there, AC started building their own Cobras, but the car was still the car that Shelby, not AC, came up with. Dare I say it, but an "AC" Cobra is almost a replica of the car first built here in the US. The AC Cobra is a Shelby Cobra with AC badges.

Man, that should piss a few people off .

[Trevor Legate]

The AC Cobra is a Shelby Cobra with AC badges.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!! By Jove, he's got it...............(or was it a Shelby Ford Cobra? Oh, forget it)

[BROOKLANDSSPEED]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa......

[Power Surge]

I figured some of you guys across the pond would get a kick out of that one .

[REAL 1]

Brooklands. Your probably right. Many people looking at an Ace might think its a Cobra. Exactly my point sir. Thank you.



You guys are a scream.

Must admit. I did like the line about KFC.

[BROOKLANDSSPEED]

yea i thought it was good , but not as good as cobra = rob ac haaaaaaa

[REAL 1]

AC = riding CS/SAI coat tails into notable automotive history.


double haaaaa

[froggyman]

Since we are on the topic of AC. Can someone here guide me to where I may find the "AC "emblems that appear in a circle for the nose and trunk of our cobras?

Many thanks in advance.

[Power Surge]

Originally posted by froggyman


Since we are on the topic of AC. Can someone here guide me to where I may find the "AC "emblems that appear in a circle for the nose and trunk of our cobras?

Many thanks in advance.

Call Motorsports International at 619-390-9080

If they don't have it, nobody does .

[BROOKLANDSSPEED]

You wont find em except on european cars [AC 289 sports ]or some cob cox chassis versions , anyway theyre only rebadged shelbys please keep up .........arf arf

[nikbj68]

Originally posted by REAL 1


.....Ask 10 average Joes on the street what a Shelby Cobra is. Good chance 10 out of 10 will know....

Ask the same 10 Joes what an AC Cobra is.... 11 of them will know what it is, and their Dad/Uncle/Grandpa have still got one in the back of the garage, covered with sheeting.
Nedsel....sshhhhh! I thought that the AC 289mk111 was a 'best-kept secret' !

[REAL 1]

If you showed a picture of a Cobra to 10 guys here in the U.S. I think 10 out of 10 would say its a Shelby Cobra. Do the same across the pond I'm sure out of patriotic bias at least 5 would say its an AC Cobra which is not a surprise for a lot that puts the steering wheel on the wrong side anyway.




Meow.

[london]

So we're 'a lot' now!

[1ntCobra]

Did anyone notice the hood badge on CSX1002? See http://www.shelbyclassics.com/bj009.jpg It says "Shelby AC Cobra". I think that's what the badges looked like on the really earlier cobras.

[REAL 1]

That was a VERY early badge from the original era. Shelby changed it quickly to the one more widely recognized. See the badges next to the avatar of members with original cars. Thats the badge most widely associated with the car.

No one questions AC's involvement in the original car. This issue being debated is a little different.