Flat tappet cam life

[jmarsey]

I run the Crane solid rollers and have had excellent results with the Rotella T 10w-30, Castrol Tection Extra 15w-40 and frequent oil change. My friend runs the Rotella 15w-40 in his FE solid flat tappet and swears by it as well.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Badsnake427

Good point, I didn't notice that. I can still get Kendall GT-1 oil here, though. How would I be able to get a recent analasis?

I use Kendall, but you have to supplement it. See my detailed thread here on the Capital Area Cobra Club forum. I sent my oil off for analysis, etc., and used "magic goo" to get my ZDDP up to a safe percentage for my solid, flat tappet cam. http://www.capitalareacobraclub.com/...ic,5499.0.html

[clayfoushee]

Originally Posted by jmarsey

I run the Crane solid rollers and have had excellent results with the Rotella T 10w-30, Castrol Tection Extra 15w-40 and frequent oil change. My friend runs the Rotella 15w-40 in his FE solid flat tappet and swears by it as well.

I've been using Shell Rotella 15w-40 as well, but I am told the formula changed recently, and it now has a significantly lower zinc content. So, I'm searching for the best solution now.

Although I know synthetics are far superior for sheer strength, I have concerns about the slippery stuff in a 5-year old FE. It does tend to find ways to leak better too.

[Excaliber]

Thats why I won't use synthetic in mine Clay...

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by clayfoushee

I've been using Shell Rotella 15w-40 as well, but I am told the formula changed recently, and it now has a significantly lower zinc content. So, I'm searching for the best solution now.

Although I know synthetics are far superior for sheer strength, I have concerns about the slippery stuff in a 5-year old FE. It does tend to find ways to leak better too.

Blame for leaks belongs first to poor workmanship and poor seals/gaskets. I've got over 17,000 miles on a Hi-Po 289 engine using Mobil 1 15W-50 with zero leaks.

Z. Ray

[4pipes]

Originally Posted by clayfoushee

I've been using Shell Rotella 15w-40 as well, but I am told the formula changed recently, and it now has a significantly lower zinc content. So, I'm searching for the best solution now.

Although I know synthetics are far superior for sheer strength, I have concerns about the slippery stuff in a 5-year old FE. It does tend to find ways to leak better too.

I'm thinking of switching from Kendall GT-1 20W50 to the new formulation of Mobil 1 15w50 that has higher levels of ZDDP.
http://www.mobil1.com/USA-English/Mo...t_Engines.aspx
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...il1_15W-50.asp

[Excaliber]

I don't think the blame for oil leaks with synthetic lays with the engine builder. Some engines, like FE's, just don't lend themselves well to it's use. Not every application can be justified for synthetics, especially as it concerns break in period. I won't use it in my 650cc bike either, but many do. I remain skeptical of it from a cost/benefit analysis standpoint. The extra long miles between oil changes is a moot point due to the low miles my Cobra acquires on a yearly basis. I change oil based on TIME, not miles driven. Same for my Jeep, I don't drive it enough miles to justify the added expense and 'risk' of synthetic oil.

As to STP leaving a varnish, to that I also remain skeptical in a real world application such as a low mileage vehicle! Again cost/benefit analysis leads me to believe it's a good product, and worth the 'risk'. You would have to GREATLY over use the suggested amount to increase the viscocity rating an appreciable amount, all things should be done in moderation!

People ask me all the time what oil I recommend, by standard answer has always been: Select a product you like and one that is EASY to find most anywhere and STAY with it, then change oil on a regular basis. I think the worst thing you can do is 'mix and match' different oil brands and additives.

[4pipes]

Well, I spent a fair amount of time looking for a high ZDDP oil. I only found one company that openly cites the amount of ZDDP in their products.....Valvoline.

Their 20w50 VR-1 conventional oil looks like it fits the bill perfectly for an FE:

http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR...otor%20Oil.pdf

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I don't think the blame for oil leaks with synthetic lays with the engine builder. Some engines, like FE's, just don't lend themselves well to it's use. Not every application can be justified for synthetics, especially as it concerns break in period..................

I know of several CSX4000's that are using synthetic of one brand or another, all the owners are satisfied with the synthetic oil performance. I think the statement the FE engines are not well suited to it's use is unjustified.

As for using it for break in, after my engine was rebuilt, I didn't use it, I wanted my rings to seat before hell froze over. But many many manufacturers do put it new engines, again with great results, as they can control tolerances to the degree necessary for ring break-in not to be a factor.

Z. Ray

[4pipes]

Ray, synthetics are not recommended for FE's with flat tappet cams. It's a separate problem than ring sealing. Crane cams states on their website that synthetics may be too slippery for the lifters to rotate adequately in their guides (not enough friction between the lifter and the cam), and that if the cars are not started regularly, the oil will drain off the cam faster than conventional oils.

[jdean]

Something does not seem right here - Mobil 1 is increasing ZDDP while Shell Rotella (which I use) is decreasing it?

[427SnakeSC]

Originally Posted by 4pipes

Ray, synthetics are not recommended for FE's with flat tappet cams. It's a separate problem than ring sealing. Crane cams states on their website that synthetics may be too slippery for the lifters to rotate adequately in their guides (not enough friction between the lifter and the cam), and that if the cars are not started regularly, the oil will drain off the cam faster than conventional oils.

When I picked up my 427 from Keith Craft this summer, I asked him which oil I should use. His recommendation was "any good quality conventional oil." I think there have been other threads that Keith has been quoted as saying the same thing.

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by 4pipes

Ray, synthetics are not recommended for FE's with flat tappet cams. It's a separate problem than ring sealing. Crane cams states on their website that synthetics may be too slippery for the lifters to rotate adequately in their guides (not enough friction between the lifter and the cam), and that if the cars are not started regularly, the oil will drain off the cam faster than conventional oils.

Facts are in short supply in this discussion. Without comprehensive scientific research they always will be. What we are left with is direct real life experience, and hear-say. Neither of which is a broad proof of fact.

No cam manufacturer, no oil company, and no engine builder are going to admit fault. They will point elsewhere, to the other factors, as Crane does with "maybes" and other vague references. With flat tappet engines declining in numbers, the importance of this issue to be scientifically researched is also on the wane. We are left to determine what works on a case by case basis. There will never be a scientifically proven, definitive yes or no on the use of synthetic oil in flat tappet engines of differing designs. All one can do is observe what works for them, and make decisions accordingly.

I have experience with Ford small block, and the FE series of engines that have used synthetic oils in racing and street applications, over a period of years, without the problems others have encountered. So using a oil with superior wear characteristics make sense for me. If others have had a negative experience when using synthetic oils, they may decide the problem was causes by a lubrication issue, and go back to a conventional oil.

Cams and lifters have been failing for years before synthetic oil were introduced. So it seems unlikely that all current failures can be ascribed to the use of synthetic oil.

Z. Ray

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by jdean

Something does not seem right here - Mobil 1 is increasing ZDDP while Shell Rotella (which I use) is decreasing it?

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...t_Engines.aspx

Mobil is touting several weights of oil as being recommended for flat tappet engine designs. The 15W-50 weight seems to be one with the most ZDDP & phosphorus


http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...AQs.aspx#FAQs3

"....Why are you reintroducing Mobil 1 15W-50? Have there been any changes to the formulation, or is it identical to the previous product?

Mobil 1 15W-50 is being reintroduced based on popular demand. Mobil 1 15W-50 provides higher viscosity, designed to provide extra protection for performance vehicles and vehicles that operate in severe service, such as towing, hauling and racing. Additionally, Mobil 1 15W-50 contains higher levels of anti-wear (ZDDP or Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate) that may be required for certain racing applications and camshaft designs. This is a new Mobil 1 15W-50 formulation and is not the same as the product that was marketed a few years ago. ....."

Z. Ray

[rdorman]

The new formulation of Rotella T 15W-40 that meets the CJ-4 spec contains 1210 ppm zinc, the max allowed for CJ-4. If I recall correctly, it used to be about 1400. 1210 is plenty.

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...up=Lubrication

It is my understanding the companies like Crane and Comp Cams have changed hardening processes in respoonse to lower phospated ash/zddp.

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by rdorman

The new formulation of Rotella T 15W-40 that meets the CJ-4 spec contains 1210 ppm zinc, the max allowed for CJ-4. If I recall correctly, it used to be about 1400. 1210 is plenty.

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...up=Lubrication

It is my understanding the companies like Crane and Comp Cams have changed hardening processes in respoonse to lower phospated ash/zddp.

that's good news from the cam manufacturers. Do you have a web page, or other source available for posting, so we can get the whole story?

thanks,

Z. Ray

[rdorman]

This may add to the controversy: http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/548e.pdf

I don't recall exactly where I read about the changes in the hardening process but in a recent issue (although it was about roller cams) they talk about their carburizing process on cams taking them to 58-62 'c' on the rockwell scale. Plus they have recently released the Mikronite surface finishing process.

I used to run Mobil 1 5W-30 in my flat tappet motor in the Cobra... until I wiped a lobe. Then I found out about zinc and have been using Rotella T 5W-40 synthetic but with the new formulations, that may change as well. It has worked great but I have a note into Shell to find out was the new formulation is.

Of course, anyone could just add a bottle of Crane Breakin Lube at oil changes which has a high concentration of ZDDP. My understanding is that the GM EOS has been discontinued.

There are a number of oils with .11% of zinc or more (1100 ppm). This is the level I have most heard as the lower threshold. Buy the one you like and be happy!

[rdorman]

From ED, a chemist at Shell:

"Shell Rotella T Multigrade Oils in the API CJ-4 formulations contain approximately 1200 ppm zinc. This is down slightly from the typical 1400 ppm zinc found in the previous API CI-4 Plus formulation. However, in critical applications, such as gasoline engines with flat tappets, push rods, etc., we believe the new formulations still have enough zinc to provide adequate protection. In diesel engines, the new formulations gave the best protection from wear ever seen in the Shell Rotella T Multigrade product line."

[rdorman]

I also asked Ed specifically about the 5W-40 rotella T synthetic that I currently use. Here is his reponse:

"Shell Rotella T Synthetic Oil has not yet been reformulated for API CJ-4, though we expect to release the reformulation in the next couple of months. At the current time, Shell Rotella T Synthetic Oil SAE 5W-40, in the API CI-4 Plus/SL formulation, contains approximately 1600 ppm, or 0.16%, zinc."

[Excaliber]

My experience with solid ROLLER cams is failure of the lifter roller BEARINGS. Cam lobe damage follows as a result of lifter failure. New roller lifter bearing designs allow for greater oiling of the roller bearing in the lifter itself. It's more expensive than the standard roller design and the solid lifter ONLY FE blocks may not allow for enough oiling of a roller lifter even with the new designs.