Weber Look A Like Fuel Injection!

[Garage10]

priobe
Do you use your car on the street ? How do you find your webbers in that application ? I read that webbers are too finicky for street use and that is why people go to systems like dynatek. But, I too think all these efi systems need to get in line with their pricing. It is waaaaaay too high compared to a carb/carbs/webbers.

[priobe]

garage10,

I agree with you on the pricing. Way toooooo expensive. You can hide the injectors, and fuel delivery but it still would not be Webers!

I use my Webers on the street and only on the street. My car has not yet seen the track.

Now from what I can tell it seems that the fuel drip happens with any carb setup. There are ways to slow it down but a definite cure is still in progress.

SO the down side to the Webers is that it will drip fuel in down the throat. This may not always be the case for every setup. I believe that it is happening to some people and they dont even know it. The pass it off as normal charaterisics of the Webers.

With the Dynatek system you will not have this problem. But you will pay more money as mentioned.

I have been giving it some thought to add injector boses to the manifold and adding a TPS sensor to turn the webers to EFI.

I have prefer the Haltech unit because it is realtime data management. Many system out there require you to turn off the engine, program, the start.

I am not sure how the Dynateck operates but if it is a self tuning unit, it would make a verty user friendly system. However, it may limit what you are capable of doing.

The Halteck system will provide SFI, batch and multipoint injection all built in to the unit. It will also control timing and accessories.

I figure by creating my own injection system it will cost me close to $2000 w/ a igition system. Remember I have the Webers and sensor already.

My point is these cars for me is a hobby and to have fun. But it does not justify $6000 to spend on a carb system I already have that will give me only 1 added feature that I will figure out a cure (dripping of fuel).

By the way, I just love when I pop my hood and people see I have the original Webers and I receive a comment like "that system is the hardest to tune and you will never get it right" I then start her up and ask it seems like it is properly tuned to me (with them agreeing).

[RodKnock]

A decision that I'll be making at some point in the future. Rokndad here on CC recently chose Webers over Dynatek. He may visit later and explain his decision, but he loves his Webers and they're about half the final cost of the Dynatek system installed.

[priobe]

Rodknock,

I have been in contact with Rokndad. We had a discussion on the Webers and yes it seems as if he is very happy with the setup. I have no complaint either, however I see an alternative way to introduce the EFI with multi-throttlebodies less than the Dynatek system with more fuctionality.

However, I do not have the funds to prove this nor do I want to spend the money. Perhaps if I get bored I will try it.

[rokndad]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

A decision that I'll be making at some point in the future. Rokndad here on CC recently chose Webers over Dynatek. He may visit later and explain his decision, but he loves his Webers and they're about half the final cost of the Dynatek system installed.

OK,OK, I've been lurking and just sent an email to Phil this morning on the dripping subject. I was sooooo close to pulling the trigger on the Dynatek system as Rodney well knows, but the extra wiring and O2 sensors and extra boxes and controllers got to me at the end. I wanted the clean race-ready look of the original carbs without any extra things on the engine. I was, at the same time, shirking away from the dilemmas I was reading about tuning the Webers and all the expense of trial and error with the jet stacks and e-tubes, the mumbo-jumbo about chokes and jets and holders, transition circuits and the dripping and the popping and all the other "ills" that made their way into the CC annals.

However, reading this site almost every day, and doing lots of research on FE's with Webers, I decided I was up for a little tuning challenge. Priobe, eljaro and ENTDOC's input gave me the confidence to finally get over it and go with the Webers. I found a worldwide distributor 45 miles from my home, and they have the parts and the tech advice available so I went with the exact same setup as Stefano (eljaro) bought and it's pretty much period correct (although new parts/carbs from Spain not Italy) without using computers. I, indeed, spent about $400 in new chokes (40mm), two sets of e-tubes and two each sets of idle and main jets to get where I am. Probably not done with changing these in the long run, but I'll run with these for now.

I have had my challenges with the new carbs, and even the dripping that Phil is experiencing has abated. Totally stopped? No. But my DaVinci 950 4bbl also had a slight drip onto the throttle plates after hot shutdown. I can live with the tiny bit that is making some, but not all, of the throttle plates wet 8-10 minutes after shutdown. The spring gas formula seems to have helped over the winter gas.

My set up is still rich and smells rich in the idle circuit, but the popping has totally gone away. No stumbles and runs like a totally different car. The smell improves a bit as the car totally heats up. As Rick Lake said, the torque improvements are like nothing you can describe but you feel it in the seat of the pants when you hit the throttle. A real screamer and I drive it every weekend. I think the mileage may have dropped slightly but my baseline is too early to tell. Who the heck cares anyway, right?

Just like everything else, I'm happy I went this way and appreciate those that have the EFI's as well. This is what was meant for me. I'm an old school twiddler/fiddler and have not really made the full on jump to hi-tech computer-based systems. The Webers I can do with a Synchrometer, a timing light, my tach, a few plug reading sessions, my nose and ears.
Oh, and my 45 year old tool collection that I am thoroughly enjoying using again.

As an aside, I wonder how GreatAsp's (Eric's) Dynatek setup finally worked out for him. He indicated he too was having a little problem with the tune and said it was still not right after spending big $$ to install. I was hoping he was going to end up happy.

[rokndad]

Originally Posted by Garage10

priobe
Do you use your car on the street ? How do you find your webbers in that application ? I read that webbers are too finicky for street use and that is why people go to systems like dynatek. But, I too think all these efi systems need to get in line with their pricing. It is waaaaaay too high compared to a carb/carbs/webbers.

As another user, my car has a pretty lumpy cam in it, and loped fairly well at idle with the 4bbl. Running previously at around 30 mph in 3rd gear (toploader 3:31 rear) it would lurch and jump around in town since it was between 1500 and 2200 rpm and didn't want to calmly run there. It ran really smoothly around 2800-3500 on the freeway, and my wife even fell asleep routinely on runs of 30 miles or more. You should see the people in adjacent cars chuckling at how someone could be asleep in that beast with all that noise. No earplugs either. I don't get it. She says it feels like a massage chair. Happy for her.

With the Webers, much easier to start either hot or cold, and runs really smoothly around town. No lurching or jumping around. A totally different sound and experience and so far, very reliable. I believe I have a more responsive car with the Webers and the enjoyment from others looking at it is priceless. This is what I have always thought a performance car should drive and sound like. I am very happy I made the challenging switch, and I know I am not done with the tuning and tweaking but I am going to get used to it as is for now. It was the right thing for me.

[D-CEL]

In theory, a carb or an EFI system that have equal flow and are properly tuned will make the same power. Flow is flow at WOT (wide open throttle). What we are really talking about is low and mid range power and drive-ability.
The main advantages of an EFI system over a carb, comes from its ability to precisely control the mixture. The result is better drive-ability, enhanced fuel economy and usually a flatter, wider torque curve under the WOT threshold.
But with these "PROS" come with some big "CONS" (no pun intended to the EFI mfgs) primarily system complexity and much higher costs. On top of that, you have to re-learn how to tune. The good part is that tuning becomes more scientific in practice, taking away some of the Juju associated with adjusting a carb.
Conversely, carbs are cheap(er) and simple(er) and for the most part can be made to produce sufficient power and acceptable drive-ability. While cabs work, to me they are a “compromise” system. I run them, but I don’t like them!! LOL

We all search for BIG HP in our mostly STREET DRIVEN toys.
But we must all remember that carbs need Vacuum to function. The wilder the engine combination becomes, the less happy most will be with the street manners of a carburetor.
EFI doesn’t need or care about vacuum and because the fuel is forced into the engine and the high level of control, it can be used to tame an otherwise….grumpy motor, another advantage.

While it is interesting to see head to head comparisons of the power, I think the true measure is how they start and drive on a cold morning in the mountains. How crisply it accelerates after idling for half an hour on the freeway when it’s 110 Deg. How controllable is the power delivery when you’re rolling into the throttle while exiting a hard right hand turn.

All things I don’t like about my very expensive, well tuned, super trick carb.

I’m putting EFI on my new motor, because it has flow potential that no carb can match thereby making the most possible HP and torque and with the right ECM (BIG STUFF or ACCEL DFI) will offer the best possible drive-ability. No compromises.
To me that is worth the additional cost and extra effort.

As I have said many times, there is no right way or wrong way, just opinion.


Jason

[RodKnock]

So, it sounds like there's no perfect solution. The Dynatek system is advertised as not needing any tuning or programming, which sounds right up my alley. I tend to be "new school" or "plug and play." However, that may not be true. The only two CC members that have the Dynatek FI installed, to be the best of my knowledge, are Dean Lampe on his Windsor and Eric on his FE. Anyone else?

[rokndad]

Originally Posted by D-CEL

I’m putting EFI on my new motor, because it has flow potential that no carb can match thereby making the most possible HP and torque and with the right ECM (BIG STUFF or ACCEL DFI) will offer the best possible drive-ability. No compromises.
To me that is worth the additional cost and extra effort.

As I have said many times, there is no right way or wrong way, just opinion.


Jason

Wowzers!! Jason, what is that system? Very nice. We all want to hear how it runs when you get it going.

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

Anybody road tested their Dynatech Injection set-up yet?

.

100 miles on mine.

I'm not really ready to give my complete opinion yet. We had problems getting the system tuned, and without 500 miles on the street I am not ready to really drive the car to see how it will perform.

Starts great, idles great, WOT on the dyno was great. But right now I feel that the choice of ECUs would be a factor (you can order the system with the FAST ECU, which i did not know when I ordered my system).

You can get more info on my build thread

Great Asp's Superformance - FE Build

Great Asp

[razerwire]

I have extra twm set up will sell for $3500.00. Comes with f.a.s.t. controller, polished manifold, linkage, bolt it on and tune it yourself or use professional. 209-602-8649, central ca. area.

[RodKnock]

Eric, what ECU did you run?

razerwire, sounds like a great deal. Send me a PM or email with more info and pics. I'm located in the SF Bay Area.

[D-CEL]

Rokndad,

That is the Kinsler Super Cobra Jet EFI manifold. It is the first SCJ specific “Stack” injection manifold. They did their homework when they designed it. it has a bunch of great features and options.

http://www.kinsler.com/NewProducts/PDF/SCJweb.pdf

LOL, yea it should be a hell of a thing….


Jason

[rokndad]

Originally Posted by D-CEL

Rokndad,

That is the Kinsler Super Cobra Jet EFI manifold. It is the first SCJ specific “Stack” injection manifold. They did their homework when they designed it. it has a bunch of great features and options.

http://www.kinsler.com/NewProducts/PDF/SCJweb.pdf

LOL, yea it should be a hell of a thing….


Jason

Thanks for the link. They sort of look like updated versions of the old Hilborns....the workhorse of the drag strip from the 60's. Very nice. We want details when you get them going.

[rokndad]

Originally Posted by razerwire

I have extra twm set up will sell for $3500.00. Comes with f.a.s.t. controller, polished manifold, linkage, bolt it on and tune it yourself or use professional. 209-602-8649, central ca. area.

Rodney,

This is you. And nearby sounds like. Heard nothing but good things about TWM.

[Garage10]

Hey D-Cel
Kinslers web is a little short on info. Is anyone actually running this on a 460 yet that I could speak with ?
Thanks
Brent

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Eric, what ECU did you run?

Well, I don't know.... It's blue.

I did not get the self learning ECU, which I am told is not as good as this one.

I am checking with Dynatek and will see what comp I got.

E

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by rokndad

As an aside, I wonder how GreatAsp's (Eric's) Dynatek setup finally worked out for him. He indicated he too was having a little problem with the tune and said it was still not right after spending big $$ to install. I was hoping he was going to end up happy.

Rok,

A little soon (as posted above) for me to say how it is working. Once I get the clutch and engine really broken in I will put it through it's paces.

Bad weather and getting the car titled has delayed testing...

E

[D-CEL]

Brent,

The guys I have talked to at kinsler said they have sold a couple, but i havent spoken with any of the users directly.
What kind of intel are you looking for?

[razerwire]

rokndad SORRY 209-602-8645 not 9. Was going to put on Bennett push rod suspension car but decided to use n.o.s. original sidewinder ,1 four barrel. Going backwards?