Insurance Problems

[trs900]

Quote: IF I have to ride my bike at night I like you slow down to a speed where I can see the side roads better to avoid the possibility of a deer or to at least slow down if I see one to minimize damage.

I had a friend who was taken completely off of his bike by a jumping deer, he was just at the wrong place at the right time... I do understand what your saying though about the claims, again the insurance companies are always looking for any reason to raise the premiums so please all Cobra owners slow down and don't wreck if you feel like going fast just do it on the INTERNET if you have a high speed connection and not in your car as you might cause my premium to go up, again thank you all in advance for your cooperation..remeber the right foot causes trouble and the left keeps things in control..

[BigRed427]

Only write policies on drivers who have taken a high performance driving school and have no tickets. State Farm charges me $300 a year ($250 deductable) which I consider a good deal.

[lucforce]

I had to register to address this issue.

Midwest,

First, I appreciate that you came forward with the concerns of you insurance book. Other than that, I have to go on the defensive.

You made an issue over the claims from ONE quarter and mean to make an example of the the cause of the losses. You admit that one of the largest claims paid out is likely an unscrupulous client. Ignoring the two dollar claim and the likely unscrupulous client, you are raising an issue over TWO claims. Further, your statements later explain that you have no understanding of how "Racing Schools" function or the motives of the clients of said schools.

To put any credibility to the numbers that you are observing, you must first spend those hours that you mentioned that you did not wish to spend and deeply evaluate the clients that you hold and the losses that you have paid out. This must be done for over a longer period of time that a single quarter.

Obviously, if you book a higher percentage of Cobra type cars and you assume equal percentage of claims for all vehicle types, they will have a higher number of claims. How do you know that you are not simply carrying a high percentage of these vehicles?

The same argument can be placed for the value of the cars. As these are essentially new, hand-built cars and are highly sought after, they have a much higher value than say-the average VW Bus. Thus, if the cars are valued and insured for a higher amount- the claims can and will be more costly than other vehicles. I would argue that the issue is not a cobra problem but a collector car problem (remember the Dodge). This is insurance for vehicles that do not rapidly depreciate as a new car would. The rapid new car depreciation of course limiting the insurance carriers losses by design. However, a vintage Corvette in any condition is going to be just as costly or more to repair as a Cobra-any many are similarly priced and are driven aggressively.

Everyone should attend "Racing School." This is the place to learn to CONTROL a vehicle. Very few people can control a car of any sort under the any conditions. Where do you expect this knowledge to come from? I do not recall much being taught at the DMV. The car dealers neglect this as well. All that is left is the insurance company, and all mine ever wanted was a piece of paper from the aforementioned DMV and a piece of paper from my bank.

I take my insurance agent to have as much technical and automotive knowledge as I take you to have-very little. Not trying to be offensive, I am merely stating my observations from your posts on this thread. I would never mention my racing experience (not with any vehicles insured with him) or driving school attendance to the man, simply because of my expectations of his reactions. He, like you, does not understand these things. People that simply wish to learn to drive fast (as you stated) are NOT going to spend the time and money to wait and go to driving school-they are simply going to drive fast. True, some aggressive driver do attend the schools-but they do take something from the schools with them. Most of the attendees, though, attend to learn.

Motorcycles come to mind. I laugh EVERY time someone I know purchases a new bike. I tell them "...be careful, but you are going to wreck it and mess it up..." I have never met a rider that did not have an accident. It is usually when they decide that they want a motorcycle and go out and purchase a new bike, that the disaster ensues. More experienced riders rarely have accidents-when they do they are usually not at fault. This is because they they have learned to CONTROL the machine.

I contend that you had a bad month and reviewed some paper work to find that last quarter, you had to pay some claims on some Cobras. You posts state that you did no research into the issue any further, and then you posted a warning to all current and future Cobra owners while trying to find a way to punish "those rectums."

I understand the principles of business, but what I do not understand is this witch hunt. I think that you are simply experiencing sticker shock.

[tcrist]

Lucforce,
I believe that Robbin started this thread with the intenion of informing Cobra owners of an issue that seems to be on the rise and to inform us that this is an issue that we can sometimes control (with our right foot). We want to be able to insure our Cobras for a good price and that is not going to be able to be done if we are sometimes careless with the way we drive our Cobras. Accidents are just that "accidents". When someone is driving a high HP car that weighs in around 2,000 LBS and looses control of it because they are driving beyond there limits, I don't call that an accident, I call that being careless. They have the idea, what the h--l, I have insurance. That is what they are there for. I digress. The insurance company is there for ACCIDENTS not CARELESSNESS. Don't get me wrong. I don't like paying insurance premiums either. You pay for years with no claims. What do you get out of it. The satisfaction that if you do have an accident, "your covered". No, I do not work for an insurance company and no one in my family works for one either. I am not on anybodys bandwagon, I just try to understand the whole issue as I see it.

By the way, Welcome to CC.

Terry

[RedBarchetta]

Boy it sure is a good thing that insurance agents aren't mandated (by law), in order to maintain their license to sell auto insurance policies, to attend local drag strips on a quarterly/semi-annual basis. If that were the case, we'd all be paying THROUGH THE NOSE for auto insurance. The "perception" of all those people drag racing their 'street' cars, despite the fact that there are rarely incidents when cars collide or get damaged after ramming a guard rail, would be enough to warrant price increases. Again, the perception wouldn't fit the crime.

I think it's awesome that a collector car insurance guy posts here and is asking for opinions. I just hope that the playing field is level and that ALL the facts are being reviewed and analyzed before judgments are passed. That's all that I ask for.

-Dean

[pmfranke]

thanks, I 'm thinking something is wrong.I have an aggreed value of 35,000. i'm 52 ,clean record,ect. If they dont fix it i'll be shopping again. I live in truckee and only drive 5 months max(cause of snow and bad weather)so i should get some kind of break. I also was thinking , people who build their cars from the ground up might treat their cars with a little more respect knowing how much work they had to put into their car.

[767Jockey]

Robbin,
This thread is SO discouraging. My record was clean for years. One night while driving home from work at 3:00 AM, on a local stretch of three lane limited access highway whose speed limit was artificially forced down to 50 for revenue enhancement, I was ticketed for speeding. 3 months later I was at an unmanned ezpass tollbooth and the gate didn't come up. Again, it was in the wee hours of the morning, about 4:00 AM. After waiting about 5 minutes for help, it became apparent that none was forthcoming. I backed up to enter another toll lane, and a revenue (I mean police) officer appeared out of nowhere and ticketed me for backing on a controlled access highway. I was clean for years, and have had no accidents. However, now with two tickets in three months, now I guess I'm public danger number one, and I should just sell the Cobra rather than work my tail off to finish it since I likely won't be able to get insured due to my "terrible" driving record. Remember, we all speed, each and every one of us. Some have been caught, most haven't yet. Tomorrow is another day, and it may be your turn to support the local poor.

[Midwest Classic]

Originally Posted by lucforce

I had to register to address this issue.

Midwest,

First, I appreciate that you came forward with the concerns of you insurance book. Other than that, I have to go on the defensive.

You made an issue over the claims from ONE quarter and mean to make an example of the the cause of the losses. You admit that one of the largest claims paid out is likely an unscrupulous client. Ignoring the two dollar claim and the likely unscrupulous client, you are raising an issue over TWO claims. Further, your statements later explain that you have no understanding of how "Racing Schools" function or the motives of the clients of said schools.

To put any credibility to the numbers that you are observing, you must first spend those hours that you mentioned that you did not wish to spend and deeply evaluate the clients that you hold and the losses that you have paid out. This must be done for over a longer period of time that a single quarter.

Obviously, if you book a higher percentage of Cobra type cars and you assume equal percentage of claims for all vehicle types, they will have a higher number of claims. How do you know that you are not simply carrying a high percentage of these vehicles?

The same argument can be placed for the value of the cars. As these are essentially new, hand-built cars and are highly sought after, they have a much higher value than say-the average VW Bus. Thus, if the cars are valued and insured for a higher amount- the claims can and will be more costly than other vehicles. I would argue that the issue is not a cobra problem but a collector car problem (remember the Dodge). This is insurance for vehicles that do not rapidly depreciate as a new car would. The rapid new car depreciation of course limiting the insurance carriers losses by design. However, a vintage Corvette in any condition is going to be just as costly or more to repair as a Cobra-any many are similarly priced and are driven aggressively.

Everyone should attend "Racing School." This is the place to learn to CONTROL a vehicle. Very few people can control a car of any sort under the any conditions. Where do you expect this knowledge to come from? I do not recall much being taught at the DMV. The car dealers neglect this as well. All that is left is the insurance company, and all mine ever wanted was a piece of paper from the aforementioned DMV and a piece of paper from my bank.

I take my insurance agent to have as much technical and automotive knowledge as I take you to have-very little. Not trying to be offensive, I am merely stating my observations from your posts on this thread. I would never mention my racing experience (not with any vehicles insured with him) or driving school attendance to the man, simply because of my expectations of his reactions. He, like you, does not understand these things. People that simply wish to learn to drive fast (as you stated) are NOT going to spend the time and money to wait and go to driving school-they are simply going to drive fast. True, some aggressive driver do attend the schools-but they do take something from the schools with them. Most of the attendees, though, attend to learn.

Motorcycles come to mind. I laugh EVERY time someone I know purchases a new bike. I tell them "...be careful, but you are going to wreck it and mess it up..." I have never met a rider that did not have an accident. It is usually when they decide that they want a motorcycle and go out and purchase a new bike, that the disaster ensues. More experienced riders rarely have accidents-when they do they are usually not at fault. This is because they they have learned to CONTROL the machine.

I contend that you had a bad month and reviewed some paper work to find that last quarter, you had to pay some claims on some Cobras. You posts state that you did no research into the issue any further, and then you posted a warning to all current and future Cobra owners while trying to find a way to punish "those rectums."

I understand the principles of business, but what I do not understand is this witch hunt. I think that you are simply experiencing sticker shock.

Actually I did not get on here for my own insurance book of business. I see a problem brewing in the industry and wanted to bring it to concerned owners. One of the largest collector car agencies in the Country does not write Cobras. They even state it right on their website, to me that's kind of scary for the Cobra owner.

Nope you are right I do not attend driving schools although I have been to many track events, for Corvettes. I enjoy my five vehicles and working on them in my spare time. I have a fairly well equipped garage with more equipment than most. So you are right driving schools are something I have attended.

If you want to stay I don't know what I am doing when it comes to a track school you are right but at least I am willing to ask the question and go to the people that I feel have the probably the best knowledge on Cobra usage and that are the educated long time owners that use this website. They have given me a lot to consider and to take to my carriers if the need would ever arise. It has been a pleasure to respond and accept the information that many have provided, including yourself.

I spend most of my spare time in EMS classes and working with my local rescue squad and ambulance service. I am the one that has to pull the person out of the vehicle that just rolled it after negotiating a turn to fast. I hate that part of my volunteer job. So when I see a consistency in my book of business where there is excess damage done to a particular class of vehicle I am concerned. The higher the cost of repair the better chance of a fatality. The worst thing I have ever had to do in my 30 year insurance career is deliver a life insurance check to the spouse of a client that was killed in a car related accident. I don't like it and would hate to see anyone go through it.

I did not expect to hear as many positive suggestions as I have had from this site. These are the true Cobra people. Those responding to the thread, sending me personal emails, and even calling me on the phone to talk have been great. They have given me a better idea of what to look for in an owner and to them I say thank you.

This was the first thread I have ever started but I have taught many classes on how to insure collector cars as well as other insurance courses. I feel education is the key to being successful in anything and I was able to get an education over the past couple of days. It has helped me tremendously.

Do I claim to be a professional on every vehicle out there, nope and doubt anyone is. I am a car enthusiast and love my job. When you can talk shop with car owners, exchange ideas, go to sometimes 100 events a year and then get paid to do all of that, I am happy to do what I do. I am glad I was the one that made you to decide to register on CC, at least I did something right.

[Midwest Classic]

Originally Posted by RedBarchetta

Boy it sure is a good thing that insurance agents aren't mandated (by law), in order to maintain their license to sell auto insurance policies, to attend local drag strips on a quarterly/semi-annual basis. If that were the case, we'd all be paying THROUGH THE NOSE for auto insurance. The "perception" of all those people drag racing their 'street' cars, despite the fact that there are rarely incidents when cars collide or get damaged after ramming a guard rail, would be enough to warrant price increases. Again, the perception wouldn't fit the crime.

I think it's awesome that a collector car insurance guy posts here and is asking for opinions. I just hope that the playing field is level and that ALL the facts are being reviewed and analyzed before judgments are passed. That's all that I ask for.

-Dean

Hey you forgot somebody has to pay for the rooms, transportation and then we are going to have to have a car to drive on the track for that first hand experience. Premiums will have to be increased just to accommodate this. Norma, in my office, always tells people that call in with new cars she needs to test drive it for 30 days to make sure it is road safe, maybe she has the best idea of all.

[Midwest Classic]

Originally Posted by tcrist

Lucforce,
I believe that Robbin started this thread with the intenion of informing Cobra owners of an issue that seems to be on the rise and to inform us that this is an issue that we can sometimes control (with our right foot). We want to be able to insure our Cobras for a good price and that is not going to be able to be done if we are sometimes careless with the way we drive our Cobras. Accidents are just that "accidents". When someone is driving a high HP car that weighs in around 2,000 LBS and looses control of it because they are driving beyond there limits, I don't call that an accident, I call that being careless. They have the idea, what the h--l, I have insurance. That is what they are there for. I digress. The insurance company is there for ACCIDENTS not CARELESSNESS. Don't get me wrong. I don't like paying insurance premiums either. You pay for years with no claims. What do you get out of it. The satisfaction that if you do have an accident, "your covered". No, I do not work for an insurance company and no one in my family works for one either. I am not on anybodys bandwagon, I just try to understand the whole issue as I see it.

By the way, Welcome to CC.

Terry

You are right on the money with what I was trying to do.

[Midwest Classic]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

Robbin,
This thread is SO discouraging. My record was clean for years. One night while driving home from work at 3:00 AM, on a local stretch of three lane limited access highway whose speed limit was artificially forced down to 50 for revenue enhancement, I was ticketed for speeding. 3 months later I was at an unmanned ezpass tollbooth and the gate didn't come up. Again, it was in the wee hours of the morning, about 4:00 AM. After waiting about 5 minutes for help, it became apparent that none was forthcoming. I backed up to enter another toll lane, and a revenue (I mean police) officer appeared out of nowhere and ticketed me for backing on a controlled access highway. I was clean for years, and have had no accidents. However, now with two tickets in three months, now I guess I'm public danger number one, and I should just sell the Cobra rather than work my tail off to finish it since I likely won't be able to get insured due to my "terrible" driving record. Remember, we all speed, each and every one of us. Some have been caught, most haven't yet. Tomorrow is another day, and it may be your turn to support the local poor.

When you are ready to insure the car talk to me and I will see what I can do. The ticket at the tollbooth was BS and I would have personally fought that one. I agree with you everyone speeds but knowing what is excessive is what someone has to be able to acknowledge. I drive about 75-80 a couple of times a week but it is usually in an ambulance with lights and sirens going. Kind of helps get that speed thing out of my system.

[Midwest Classic]

Originally Posted by pmfranke

thanks, I 'm thinking something is wrong.I have an aggreed value of 35,000. i'm 52 ,clean record,ect. If they dont fix it i'll be shopping again. I live in truckee and only drive 5 months max(cause of snow and bad weather)so i should get some kind of break. I also was thinking , people who build their cars from the ground up might treat their cars with a little more respect knowing how much work they had to put into their car.

Most collector car agencies do give you a better rate and coverage than your standard coverage. The big concern with the person building their car from the ground up is how much experience do they have in building a car. If they are just using a video to learn to build a car, that to me is a little scary. I perfer the person that has bought the roller and either added the drive train or had someone else install it for him. I think those are probably a little safer.

[lucforce]

Robbin, I do appreciate you spreading the word of caution.

However, insurance companies not wishing to write Cobras is nothing new. In the last 10-15 years, I believe that it has become tremendously easier and more affordable to insure vehicles such as these. My concern is the spreading unsubstantiated ideas that the "Cobra" is suddenly an extreme risk to the insurers. Spreading of ideas like this (especially over the Internet), can only HARM the hobby as other insurers hear word and relay unfounded reports. This could push the hobby back a few years. It is not unheard of for insurers to cut out groups for even the most moderate perceived risk.

[lucforce]

Originally Posted by Midwest Classic

Most collector car agencies do give you a better rate and coverage than your standard coverage. The big concern with the person building their car from the ground up is how much experience do they have in building a car. If they are just using a video to learn to build a car, that to me is a little scary. I perfer the person that has bought the roller and either added the drive train or had someone else install it for him. I think those are probably a little safer.

See, this is an example of the perceived risk I mention. Who is to say that the car is any safer or better assembled because it was purchased somewhere rather than built in the garage. This is a ridiculous assumption.

[olddog]

Being a new owner of a Cobra, I have to say I feel I (short term Cobra owner) have been singled out more than once in this thread, as public enemy number one, and I should be hit with mega premiums until I prove myself. The data given was 3 owned a cobra over 18 months, one 5 years, and 3 less than 18 months. So, I must point out the data showed that most of the claims were people who owned a cobra for more than 18 months.

My observation is that many people are attracted to the Cobra because it was the ultimate muscle car of all times, and many build way more hp than can be used. Sort of a “my dick is bigger than yours attitude”. Arrogance is a major factor in Cobra owners, as I have learned reading on this site.

This thread is filled with arrogant statements, of how some other group of stupid people is the cause of the problem, but not me. No sir, not me. I have been to school, and I have raced these cars, and I know what they can do. Yep I'm so fricking good in one of these cars, I can ovoid accidents that other mere mortals in regular cars just don't have a chance. Excuse me a second while I go puke.

Well, I watch professionals wreck on tracks every race. You push anything to its limit and the least unexpected unplanned event can cause disaster. Anyone who thinks they can push a Cobra (or any other car) anywhere near the limits of the cars ability and always be in complete control is a fool. The more you do it, the more confident you get, and the more surprised you will be when that unplanned, unexpected thing sends you careening out of control.

The wrong attitude, causing poor judgment, is the leading cause of all accidents. Lack of experience and training is not the cause. Being too arrogant to admit you need more training and experience is what gets people into trouble. And worse yet, being arrogant because you have had the training and experience, and thinking you are too good to have an accident.

[hi-tech cobra]

Midwest Classic,

After reading all this thread, I am very concerned about the future of driving a cobra. I live in Florida, and if you follow the news you would know how the big insurance companies are pulling out of the state due to losses from the past hurricanes. It looks bad, and home valuations in the state are starting to slide because of it.

This trend will eventually hit our little band of cobra brothers, if what you say is true about the disproportion in cobra claims. Our hobby is small and vulnerable to the whims and perceptions of the insurance industry. And there is not a lot we can do about it. But we can do something. Here are a few ideas. None that I like, but faced with the alternative they are something I can live with if it means I can drive my cobra.

1. Have a cap of $50K on the overall value of the cobra. Anything above should be the owner's responsibility. Let's face it, if someone has the cash to fork out this kind of money for a toy, they should be able to absorb the difference to repair or replace it. The valuation should be based on the actual kit. No way should a kit that cost $25K be valued at $75K. No matter how shiny the paint is. This leaves the door open for "cashing out".
2. More due diligence on suspicious claims. On the early morning deer/leaving party accident. Why did you pay the claim? Am I wrong to assume most insurance companies would dispute a suspicious accident like this? Are you too easy?
3. Higher deductibles. This would make someone think twice about filing an unnecessary claim. I am on my 3rd cobra. My first was damaged by my first wife (she go bye bye) leaving the rear quarter with several very deep scratches. Did I call my insurance agent and file a claim? No, I don't see insurance as a quick and easy bail out. I paid to have it repaired. And then got rid of the wife (is there divorce insurance, because I really could have used it-ouch, that cost me!). Why would someone enter a claim for $2? What is the average deductible on you policies? Are you are getting killed on damage that should be handled by the owners?
4. Mandatory driving school. This is big. No, it doesn't teach you to drive faster, it teaches you to drive BETTER! I have done both open wheel driving schools and porsche driving schools. What I know helps me stay in control.

It stinks but maybe cobra insurance should be more like my health insurance. My family is very careful not to abuse it because of high deductibles, co-pay, no prescription drugs, etc...I don't like it, but being self employed, married with two kids I am paying around $750 per month. And everyone is healthy! We find a way to make it work, because the insurance companies force us to.

These are just ideas. I appreciate the fact that you are on here asking for opinions. The cars we drive are way overpowered. We drive them because they are exciting (this is America, not Amerika). They should be respected because when they bite, they bite hard.

It is a shame some guys don't drive more responsibly, but it is human nature. Give a guy a really big gun and what does he want to do-shoot it so everyone can see what a big gun he has. I drove and will drive my cobra slow on the street because there is nothing to prove. What I do on the track is a different story. And if I wreck it while racing, it's on my dime.

[lucforce]

hi-tec, you made some intelligent suggestions. I can agree and disagree with you 50k cap though. I believe that the insurers should require some sort of training for ANY performance vehicle-if not all vehicles. The only restriction for driving a performance vehicle is your checkbook. No one will ever claim that people with more money are less accident prone or are better drivers. For all our sakes, I believe that a driver's training rule should be in place to reduce insurance losses and promote road safety.

[CobraDan]

The insurance companies think that a turn key minus car is almost like an assembled car at one of the many major car companies coming off the line as all they do is build Cobras. I know that certain insurance companies will not insure FFR cars as they are home built as are many other Cobra brands. I don’t want to get into trouble here as I built my own Cobra and way before you could get on line and ask how to do something that was unclear in the directions. I have seen many cobras built by their owners that surpass any coming off the assembly lines but from some of the questions asked on the forums many should be only building 1/18 scale models, and for this reason I can see insurance companies grouping all home builds into the uninsurable columns. This is only one of many, many threads started on insurance companies dropping the Cobra because of recent large claims from customers. Many new owners tried insurance companies they knew issued insurance for Cobras but were now told that they no longer did. I had a long list of former insurance companies that did at one time insure Cobras but no longer do, this was on my old computer and long gone. There are still many companies that insure the Cobra but the list is getting smaller. As far as going to a driving school, if all had to go before being issued insurance it would be more than likely like the course I went through to be able to carry a concealed weapon. First I will say I have shot many thousands of rounds of ammo over the years and very accurately before taking the test, but in the actual test we were taken to an inside shooting range handed a revolver and told to put one round into a target 5 feet away. With my Cobra insurer now, I was told that many new owners have problems because they don’t realize how a car with so much HP will handle. I was asked if I had any experience and I told them that I had drag raced for many years and they felt that qualified, well at least I was issued a policy. I’m sure we have a very high percentage of Cobra owners who will never file a claim but you don’t need many high dollar claims from a very small group of drivers to have the insurance companies drop us. I have lived in Florida for the past 10 years and the home owner insurance companies have paid out big beginning in 2004 and 2005 because of large storm damage claims. Now they are dropping home owners one by one and leaving the state because of immense losses. They all like the checks coming in but they don’t like mailing them out.

[Ron61]

Hi-Tech,

Your points are very valid and I made some of the same suggestions to my insurance company several years ago. I grew up with the Cobras and fast cars and had a lot of driving experience, but I still never attended a driving school that I didn't learn something. I did prefer the schools where they let you use your own car as I feel they give a person a chance to find out about the quirks of their own cars, and all have them. I no longer drive much and certainly not fast, but I still go out once in a while and practice on a closed section of old mountain highway. I believe that of the Cobras I have seen wrecked around here, most of them happened within a few months of getting the car on the road. And most of the drivers had no experience with any kind of muscle or fast car.

Ron

[CobraDan]

AL Adkins posted the insurance thread over at ffcobra and I thought you might find a recent post from Steven interesting Here in Fl. the other day some guy brought his new Z06 to the track and hit the wall. The On-Star registered and the cops showed up, they wrote him up so he couldn't make a claim!!!