Insurance Problems

[Midwest Classic]

It's nice to have friends that can help with some of that resto work. I have three vehicles I want to finish for Spring 2008 and two additional I want to do Spring 2009. I am doing some work, a friend some other body work and another friend that will do the finish work and paint. If you are going to own cars it is much more fun and personally gratifying to do some work yourself, other than waxing!

In most cases mileage restrictions are never reached, there are exceptions. One of my carriers has a trip extension and the other we usually drop a note in the file on a long distance trip and they do not count those miles against them in their original 5,000. I had a guy that drove his Street Rod from Oregon to Arizona to Pennsylvania and back to Oregon. He actually had two claims along the way. Company checked with me about his mileage situation, I gave them a copy of an email where he told me his route and current odometer reading and the claims were paid and no he did not get cancelled.

[fsstnotch]

That's good to know. I'll definitely look into that when I start shopping for insurance! thanks!

Ya, friends are a definite help. I've watched him paint so many cars now that I'm sure I could do it myself. But we enjoy doing it together. He usually helps me with the body work and then i help him with the paint, mixing and stuff so all he has to do is spray. We considered becoming partners in the business, but I don't feel it's good to mix friendships with business. It always comes out bad!

Josh

[Midwest Classic]

Originally Posted by fsstnotch

That's good to know. I'll definitely look into that when I start shopping for insurance! thanks!

Ya, friends are a definite help. I've watched him paint so many cars now that I'm sure I could do it myself. But we enjoy doing it together. He usually helps me with the body work and then i help him with the paint, mixing and stuff so all he has to do is spray. We considered becoming partners in the business, but I don't feel it's good to mix friendships with business. It always comes out bad!

Josh

Why ruin a perfect friendship with a business.

[fsstnotch]

Originally Posted by Midwest Classic

Why ruin a perfect friendship with a business.

Exactly!

[Silverback51]

Well as a new member, and someone planning on buying a Cobra in the next few weeks, this thread has been very informative.

Thank you Robbin for starting it.

You will probably be hearing from me shortly.

I did however have one comment regarding the deer at 1:30 story.

Deer generally bed down during the day and feed at night. It's not that unusual for them to be hit early in the morning.

[Midwest Classic]

You are welcome, it has been interesting and I have printed off 28 pages so far of information to go back through and review.

I realize that information about the deer, I use to bow hunt in my earl days, but I guess when you sit where I sit a lot of times when someone goes off the road there is a deer involved. My son also had story when the '66 Mustang he was driving ran off the road and took out a sign attached to a 4x4 post. He found out what pedal power was all about!

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by fsstnotch

I am sure you do not maintain this info, but I would be interested to know how many of these tall claim were from people who ACTUALLY built their cars. I just feel like people who spend YEARS building their cars, have a better appreciation and respect for what goes into them. Not to say that there aren't people out there who do stupid things intheir cars that they built, just that my general assumption would be that they have a better understanding of what they're getting into. Kind of like when mommy and daddy buy their 16 yr old a really nice car. I had to buy my first car, so you better believe I made sure it was taken care of because if I broke it, I was also paying to have it fixed!

Personally, i plan to insure my car at exactly what I have in parts BOUGHT. Since I already have my engine and tranny, parts bought will be the kit and wheels/tires for the most part. If I wreck the car, I'll strip the good parts off of it, and build another. It's part of the fun! Again, part of why I believe that the majority of these claims are Bought cars, Not built cars.

Josh

Pretty moronic assumption IMHO! So the person who their car has more respect and knowledge of what it can or cannot do than the person that laid out $50-70K or more to purchase one? Sorry, I'm not buying it! If anything the person who put theirs together instead of buying a professionally built one would be more of a possible liability since the insurer has no way of knowing the quality of the build and whether or not the car will stay together on the road. Besides, I'd expect the builder/owner to be the first one to go out and push the car to the max to see what his handywork was capable of.

[Naumoff]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Pretty moronic assumption IMHO! So the person who their car has more respect and knowledge of what it can or cannot do than the person that laid out $50-70K or more to purchase one? Sorry, I'm not buying it! If anything the person who put theirs together instead of buying a professionally built one would be more of a possible liability since the insurer has no way of knowing the quality of the build and whether or not the car will stay together on the road. Besides, I'd expect the builder/owner to be the first one to go out and push the car to the max to see what his handywork was capable of.

Now your assuming something. Warren G.

[lucforce]

Originally Posted by Naumoff

Now your assuming something. Warren G.

Exactly

[Cobrabill]

Sorry folks-Warren is correct.There are a lot of companies that will NOT insure a "kit car"do to build quality(unknown).Numerous telephone conversations went from negative to positive as soon as they found out i had a factory assembled car.( Superformance)

[fsstnotch]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Pretty moronic assumption IMHO! So the person who their car has more respect and knowledge of what it can or cannot do than the person that laid out $50-70K or more to purchase one? Sorry, I'm not buying it! If anything the person who put theirs together instead of buying a professionally built one would be more of a possible liability since the insurer has no way of knowing the quality of the build and whether or not the car will stay together on the road. Besides, I'd expect the builder/owner to be the first one to go out and push the car to the max to see what his handywork was capable of.

Well Moron, it was an opinion. Much like yours! My point, a guy walks into a dealer and drops 50-70k on a cobra. A very powerful RACE CAR! This person has plenty of MONEY and no ABILITY or EXPERIENCE driving a car with such power. Therefore, no business buying one until he does have some experience with a HP car. If you had read my further posts I agreed with Robin about insurance companies insuring a built car more easily than a home built kit. Like Robin said, it's a double ended sword.

Comparitively, I could walk into a store or hit up ebay and buy myself an airplane. I have never flown an airplane in my life. Now how much sense does that make?

I did not say that EVERYONE who buys their car goes out and crashes it. I'm saying that IMHO, those are the people who are more dangerous. But I completely agree that buying an assembled car could be safer for an insurance company. Not necessarily safer for you! Remember, the insurance company is only more willing to insure assembled cars because if it fails due to build quiality, they are not liable. Not because an assembled car is assembled any better than a kit.

Just out of curiosity, did you buy your car or did you build it from a kit? How much experience did you have with HP cars before buying/building your cobra? See, your ASSUMPTION could be biased. I was afraid that stating my opinion would upset some of the "buyers" in the thread. But chances are, if you are offended by my assumption. You are probably not the problem.

If you also read, Robin stated that most of the claims WERE originally rollers. So maybe my ASSUMPTION isn't as "moronic" as you think.

My point exactly, BDR gets 31k worth of INSURANCE repairs because the owner ran a red light...
Gettin' Down In the BDR!

Josh

[olddog]

Robbin,

Is your purpose of this thread to wake us up, and hopefully reduce the claims? Or is the purpose to look for solutions to the claims problems? Since you are not the insurance company, I doubt you have much influance in the policies, but I may be wrong.

One thought that came to my mind is that driving a car you are not familar with certainly makes handling in adverse conditions harder to do, at least that is my experiance. My policy has a 3000 mile per year maximum. I understand I can purchase more miles/year. I also understand that from the insurance companies perspective, the more miles driven, the more opertunities for an accident. However, one would think that if the "driving school improves skills and therefore reduces accidents" theory is correct then restricting driving experiance (miles/year) would also be counter productive.

Now the driving school makes since to me. I think Cobras are different than a lot of classic cars in that they are the ultamate performance car. Many other classic cars are purely for show, in the owners mind (certainly not all). Those that are extream performance cars are more likely to be originals that are not replaceable. From this I suspect Cobra replica owners are more likely to treat their car as a performance machine than other classic car owners. This differance may mean that what reduces claims in other classic cars may actually increase claims with Cobra owners. So it may be interesting to compare actual miles driven per year (life time total as well) verses claims.

[olddog]

As far as home built verses factory roller, I see both sides. Yes there are idiots among us, but they are not the majority. Cobra kits can vary widely, but most are well designed and mostly require getting the bolts propperly tightened. I really doubt there are many accidents due to poorly assembled kits. Equally I would bet there have been a few factory assembled cars with some mistakes. I doubt this is a huge factor one way or the other.

Unfortunately the data given is too small a group to be statistically useful. Only seven claims out who knows how many insured Cobras.

[fsstnotch]

Originally Posted by olddog

Unfortunately the data given is too small a group to be statistically useful. Only seven claims out who knows how many insured Cobras.

Agreed!

[Midwest Classic]

Originally Posted by olddog

Robbin,

Is your purpose of this thread to wake us up, and hopefully reduce the claims? Or is the purpose to look for solutions to the claims problems? Since you are not the insurance company, I doubt you have much influance in the policies, but I may be wrong.

One thought that came to my mind is that driving a car you are not familar with certainly makes handling in adverse conditions harder to do, at least that is my experiance. My policy has a 3000 mile per year maximum. I understand I can purchase more miles/year. I also understand that from the insurance companies perspective, the more miles driven, the more opertunities for an accident. However, one would think that if the "driving school improves skills and therefore reduces accidents" theory is correct then restricting driving experiance (miles/year) would also be counter productive.

Now the driving school makes since to me. I think Cobras are different than a lot of classic cars in that they are the ultamate performance car. Many other classic cars are purely for show, in the owners mind (certainly not all). Those that are extream performance cars are more likely to be originals that are not replaceable. From this I suspect Cobra replica owners are more likely to treat their car as a performance machine than other classic car owners. This differance may mean that what reduces claims in other classic cars may actually increase claims with Cobra owners. So it may be interesting to compare actual miles driven per year (life time total as well) verses claims.

The purpose was really both. Make people aware of a trend that I see and to find out what can be done to try assist in making sure the program does not go away for Cobras.

Actually you mentioned I probably do not have any influence that is really incorrect. I was able to convince the carrier to reduce rates for modified vehicles (which includes the Cobras). Up until about four years ago we did not write Cobras as the Company took the same approach that Hagerty did. When I asked them why they really did not have an answer and decided to proceed with caution in writing these. With specialty type of insurance such as Collector Car the Companies do listen to the agents that are writing the bulk of the business on these. We write in 40 States ourselves compared to your local agent that probably writes in 1.

So if I understand what you are saying since Cobras are performance vehicles we should expect the owners will possibly be driving these as performance vehicles. As far as the miles going in we can only underwrite what people have had in their past history. We do not write someone that has had more than one at fault accident/speed in the past three years. So all those miles you talk about are taken into consideration at the time we write their insurance. What goes wrong is after that and how the person operates the vehicle when they take ownership. We have Street Rodders that put 2 to 3 times the miles that the Cobra owner does on their car and there were ZERO claims from them in the 10 I mentioned over $10,000 and many of these cars are well in excess of what a typical Cobra costs.

It basically comes down to how someone drives a performance vehicle. If the vehicles are being driven within the speeds allowed by the States there probably will never be a problem.

[Midwest Classic]

Originally Posted by olddog

As far as home built verses factory roller, I see both sides. Yes there are idiots among us, but they are not the majority. Cobra kits can vary widely, but most are well designed and mostly require getting the bolts propperly tightened. I really doubt there are many accidents due to poorly assembled kits. Equally I would bet there have been a few factory assembled cars with some mistakes. I doubt this is a huge factor one way or the other.

Unfortunately the data given is too small a group to be statistically useful. Only seven claims out who knows how many insured Cobras.

Approximately 10% of our book of business is from Cobra owners but yet we see more activity from them in claims, above $10,000, than the other 90% of all other clients we insure. There is an obvious problem and I am trying to get a grasp on how to fix it before another Cobra market so no thanks to the industry. Sure there will always be someone out there to write the cars if one carrier leaves but the more carriers that walk away from them the more the next carrier is going to consider to follow suit. Keep in mind Companies are in the business to write business not look for ways to avoid it.

[lucforce]

Originally Posted by Midwest Classic

Approximately 10% of our book of business is from Cobra owners but yet we see more activity from them in claims, above $10,000, than the other 90% of all other clients we insure. There is an obvious problem and I am trying to get a grasp on how to fix it before another Cobra market so no thanks to the industry. Sure there will always be someone out there to write the cars if one carrier leaves but the more carriers that walk away from them the more the next carrier is going to consider to follow suit. Keep in mind Companies are in the business to write business not look for ways to avoid it.

Did you research the data? You stated that you did not wish to do so. Is this you largest individual covered auto model? As of yet you have still only posted results of ONE quarter's claims. Remember the four claims that started this thread.

You have yet to provide us with any reasonable data to back claims of anything. If you want to issue words of warning of "higher risk," please provide data sets. Otherwise, you are simply stirring up the nest.

[Midwest Classic]

I don't remember stating I did not wish to research anything. This is by far NOT our one largest insured model. Corvettes and Mustangs far our rank the Cobra numbers in my office with the exception of claim numbers. I don't think you read the entire thread as I did mention about three years of claims. What got my attention is the one quarter with four large claims all from Cobra owners.

I am not stirring up anything, I have the numbers and shared them to prove why I felt there was a concern. I guess you missed the part about Hagerty also not writing Cobras due to past claims history. I suppose I could drop an email to the VP that I work with from the Company but then I would be bringing it to their attention and I don't think that is something that most owners would like.

If you are trying to push my buttons, sorry not going to happen. If I saw problems with Corvairs I would be contacting Corsa to let them know there was a problem. You obviously have not read the threads where people have made suggestions on what to do to help tighten things. These are car owners that appreciate their cars and the fact that someone is trying to help them. Read the entire thread from start to finish, nobody, with the exception of yourself, has thought I am trying to stir something up. Have a great day

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by fsstnotch

Well Moron, it was an opinion. Much like yours! My point, a guy walks into a dealer and drops 50-70k on a cobra. A very powerful RACE CAR! This person has plenty of MONEY and no ABILITY or EXPERIENCE driving a car with such power. Therefore, no business buying one until he does have some experience with a HP car.

Comparitively, I could walk into a store or hit up ebay and buy myself an airplane. I have never flown an airplane in my life. Now how much sense does that make?


Just out of curiosity, did you buy your car or did you build it from a kit? How much experience did you have with HP cars before buying/building your cobra?


Josh

Sure you could go out and buy an airplane, but you couldn't legally fly it without (as pilot in command) without a license. Nor could you fly solo without an endorsement from a certified instructor. Get your license in a Cessna 150 and then want to fly an aircraft with retractable gear or variable pitch prop? No insurance company is going to cover you without an endorsement from a certified instructor. My suggestion was that the same should be true for HP cars.

As far as my experience, probably not near as much as most in this club but enough to have learned to respect the limitations of the vehicle and the laws of physics and the consequences of exceeding those laws. 60's muscle cars, MG's, Porsche's, Corvettes and 35 years of engineering experience.

As much as I would have liked to build my own, it's pretty much impossible when you're typically only home 4-6 days out of any given month. I have met some owners (so far only non-builders) who have absolutely no idea what is under the fiberglass (so far no aluminum ones) skin of their car and I wonder whether they're really in it because they love the car or the perceived status that it brings, but I still get tired of the frequent inferences that I just bought my way into this out of laziness with no thought for the responsibility driving a car like this carries.

[Naumoff]

Cobras have dominated the kit car market for sometime. I think we just have a lot of enthusiastic people who want one just because and do not have a full understanding and appreciation of what a Cobra is.

You are not to push a car(any car) to its limit on the public roads.
I choose to pick a safe environment to do that in.

Every driver should take safety classes on handling there vehicle no matter what kind it is. Driving my car to the limit in a safe supervised class does not make me want to push it to its limit on the street. Maybe that is just me.