Kirkham Hubs on a Factory Five? Backdraft? etc.

[Three Peaks]

David,
The new FFR's are going to a "complete kit" option so no donor parts. As it is now, I think most FFR builders are using very few donor parts anyway, as the old 87-93 Mustangs are getting fewer and in barely acceptable condition to reuse the parts.

I would think the rears would be a piece of cake with the rear hubs simply turned to press into the rear 8.8 Knuckles like the T-bird and 95 Mustang Cobra hubs do. Of course, it would require a female spline instead of the male end you are using in your pic.

The fronts could go either way- either design a hub to fit the bearing set up on the 94-95 spindles, or make a complete upright with brake rotor mounting with the Wilwood set up but with the 94-95 Mustang geometry. The other FFR parts- control arms, etc.... would then fit right up with your new parts and you would have a new customer base. I think I would even look into this for my scratch build if the price is right.

Bob

[Cobra4Me]

Three Peaks brings up an excellent point.
Maybe if you work with the FFR engineers you could design and fabricate all these parts to be offered as an option to their NEW Complete FFR package !
I know you guys have colaborated in the famous Kirkham aluminum body on FFR frame a few years back, so maybe re-establish communications?

[David Kirkham]

Sounds like a good idea.

I will give them a ring Monday!

David

[WildBill3]

I know we didnt use a donor for the exact reason mentioned I just bought spindals,and a 9inch ,steering shaft seperate,nice looking hubs you have ther great work..WB3

[Frank Messina]

David,
The 4 lug pieces show up mainly on donor live axle cars, everybody else with an IRS car upgraded during the build process to 5 lug either by using Lincoln LSC hub and rotor assembly on the 89-93 spindles or the later SN95 or 96 and up components. The front end was designed around the 89-93 fox components and adapted for the later pieces as they came into use. The T-bird IRS, FFR mounting cage and geometry has remained largely unchanged. A few cars have been built with Mustang Cobra IRS parts but the design was done with the T-Bird rear in mind. HTH
Frank

[Power Surge]

Another thing to consider, is that 6 pin wheels like used on KMPs and CSXs won't fit on an FFR that uses donor parts because of the wheel offset. The guys with FFRs that have real pin drive wheels (using Trigo adapters) have FFRs control arms (also using IRS) with arm lengths specifically shorter for pin drive wheels.

[LMH]

Good info!
Like I posted earlier though, what would you do about the rear hub with internal splines? Somehow, you have to get to the nut on the end of the splines.
Larry

[LMH]

Maybe the nut/socket will fit down the hub center. I would try it on my Trigo adapters but of course, my 36mm socket isn't in my tool box!
I seem to have one of those community boxes and no one puts things back!
Larry

[LMH]

David, here's a link that shows how the T-Bird knuckle goes together if you need reference.
Larry
http://www.sccoa.com/articles/rearwheelbearing.php

[Larry N Johnson]

David,

If you want an FFR for a while, I can bring mine over Monday, Sept. 17th. I am headed to AZ for a week so you can have it a week or two. Thinking of a run the 29th of Sept is the only deal.

Mine is setup like this:
Rear IRS: T-Bird center, outboard knuckles or spindles, hub. rotor, disk brakes, FFR (narrower) arms

Front: 90 Mustang V8 Spindles, 90 Lincoln 5-Lug hub/rotror, 90 Mustang disk brakes. FFR (narrower) arms

All around: Koni shocks, 500 lb/inch springs, Trigo adapers, Trigo (Chrome) 5-pin drive rims, Goodyear Eagle street radial tires

I would say you might have a decent market fro true 6-pin rims on FFR's but most guys go for 17" rims and bigger brakes so the "period correct gang" is smaller. But this option might open a market, who knows?

[CNGreen]

David,

I'm building a FFR car with Trigos like Larry has. If you had those hubs available I definitely would have gotten them. I love the locking mechanism!

Not too many guys going for authentic knock offs these days, but there are still a few of us left who love the traditional look!

I'm gonna keep an eye on this thread.

PS I'm running your gauges too!

[Rick Parker]

Are the locating pins CNC machined out of the blank?

[767Jockey]

David, how about a light and reasonable priced setup like you're discussing for the Jaguar front and rear setup as well? There's tons of Jag based cars out here with few options.

[jmimac351]

David, as others have said most cars are using the '94 and later mustang spindles. One thing to keep in mind is that the '94 / '95 spindles keep the track width a little more narrow than the '96 and later spindles. Using the '94 / '95 spindles, as I have, makes it easier to run more dish for the "pin drive offset" look. The '94 / '95 spindles have a "dogleg" in the arm that attached to the tie rod end. The '96 and later spindles have a straight arm. I think the difference in track width between the two spindles is about 5/8". You'll want to keep that in mind depending on the wheel fitment aim.

Here's a pic of my front wheel so you can get an idea of the dish. 17x9 with '94 mustang spindles. With adapters (and different brakes) I could bolt on Trigos to this setup.

Your adapters look really nice. And really expensive. I'm considering getting a set of Vintage knockoff wheels so I would be interested depending on the price point.

[Larry N Johnson]

Yes, the 94-95 hub might be the one to base the Kirkham hub on. The rotors are separate. So it might be a direct replacement as long as the rotor went back to the stock position. May have to have 6-hole rotors, too.

[David Kirkham]

WildBill3,

Thanks for the kind words.

Frank,

Thanks for the post; things are getting clearer now.

Sal,

From the pictures I see, (like jmimac351's car) the fronts should fit without any problem. I would have to check them, of course. I guess I will need one of the local guys to bring their car by for a few minutes. That shouldn't be a problem.

LMH,

Thanks for the link! There is NO problem making those type of hubs. We do that every day. That really clears things up.

Internal splines are no problem. We have broaching machines, 4 axis mills, 5 axis mills, 3 axis lathes, water jets. We spline here every day. Internal/external is no problem. Internal is actually much, much easier.

I think the 36 mm socket will fit. I put a 1 5/16 socket down a hub this morning. That is about 0.1 inches too small, but there was still rattle room. Anyone have a measurement on the OD of a 36 mm socket? Please state the make of the socket as well. (Snap-On sockets tend to be smaller than Craftsmen, for example).

Larry Johnson!

You the man! I would only need your car for less than an hour. (We don't have room to keep it for 2 weeks!) If you could bring it by that would be great! 17 inch rims with knock offs are no problem.

CNGreen,

Maybe there aren't too many guys who want the original look because it hasn't been available? Who knows; we will see.

Rick Parker,

On the hubs in the picture I posted, we CNC milled the drive pins right into the hub--fewer parts, stronger, cooler, lighter, but unfortunately, more expensive. It eats end mills and CNC time. I would probably make the hubs for the FFR guys with bolt in drive pins to keep the costs reasonable. Our hubs are extremely expensive. People may want them out of a less expensive material as well. 17-4 isn't cheap!

767Jockey,

I will have to start with the easy ones first--then move to other cars. But that is a good idea to look at other vehicles as well.

jmimac351,

The Trigo adapters push the wheel out 1/2 inch (I think). Our hubs would keep the track much narrower. Also, we could offer an aluminum hat, rotor, and Wilwood caliper option. We just finished engineering a set for the Shelby guys. They are in testing right now.

David

[CNGreen]

David,

I was told I HAVE to run Fox spindles in order to run Wilwoods. I have the SN95's (96+) spindles now and I was just getting ready to change them out. What spindles would your adapters and Wilwood configuration use to run with the Trigos?

This is getting really interesting...

[Clois Harlan]

David,

Why don't you make a replacement hub for the Wilwoods that would incorporate the knock on hub and pins. That way MANY of us could use the adaptor. With my Wilwood front brakes increasing my offset by 5/8" and then the traditional pin adaptor another 1/2" or so it causes my front wheels to stick out further than I find acceptable.

And if you get it machined in time you can bring it with you to Run and Gun in a few weeks???

Clois

[Larry N Johnson]

FFR 3850 there by 1:30
15"

Joe will bring it home tonight.

Don't scratch the right front fender!

[Bill D]

David
Another potential market for 1-piece hubs/spindles, etc would be the GT40 world. Many use C5 Corvette stuff and the pin-drive adaptors.

Try GT40s.com. You probably already know Ron Earp the owner/admin.

Bill D