rumor control--has SAAC lost its use of Shelby name?

[venomous67]

Originally Posted by shelby racer

I don't know if he started the Donkey Fund, but I have heard that he has been the MAJOR contributor to it.

Bob Shaw started the Donkey Fund after he saw how bad off a bunch of these guys were during the employee reunions he organized. As far as being a major contributor to it, not sure. But I do know that for the big Shelby tribute event just recently held at the Petersen, Shelby wouldn't cough up any $ for a bunch of the old employees that couldn't afford the $125 ticket. Instead, the Donkey Fund paid their way.

[A-Snake]

The following was posted by Rick Kopec on the SAAC Forum in response to someone asking a question about personal information given to SAAC over the years.



"Personal information given to SAAC for the registry will not be shared with anyone else. Period. Some of it is considered "public" (what will get into the registry and, hence, be available to anyone who purchases a book). The rest is "private" (address, phone numbers, email addresses, Ford serial numbers and other info the owner has asked the registrar to keep confidential). Despite any legal claims from anyone outside the club, there are confidentiality issues and First Amendment issues. Don't worry about this.

If you want something to worry about, worry about SAAC losing this battle. In simplest terms it would mean someone else would control the registry. Someone who would have a financial interest in which cars were deemed "legitimate" or "original." SAAC itself has no financial interest in the value of anyone's car. We were keeping track of these cars when Cobras were selling for $5,000 and Shelbys were selling for $1,500. It doesn't matter to the club or the registrars that Cobras are now worth $500,000 and Shelbys are worth $200,000. All it means is more zeros in the footnotes. If "continuation cars" could be built by anyone paying for a serial number, the desirability and value of these continuation cars would not rise to the current level of the originals. On the contrary, the desirability and value of the originals would sink to the level of the look-alike and clone car.

This is not a battle between Shelby and SAAC. It is a battle between Shelby and every member of SAAC— current owners as well as future owners. One-on-one, none of us would stand a chance. But if we band together and stay together we will win. The saying "there is strength in numbers" was never more true."

Rick Kopec
SAAC Nat'l Director

[fsstnotch]

I couldn't agree more

[Naumoff]

I don't understand.
SAAC started and compiled all the info for the registry how can Shelby have any rights to that?

Shelby did not start the registry.

How does a book of information and the supporting confidential info given by owner of cars make it the property of a third party?

If Shelby wants papers and stuff that he gave(?) to SAAC for there archives what does that have to do with information given to SAAC by other people?

To me a license to use the name Shelby and his logo has nothing to do with the registry.

[A-Snake]

[i]Since we are on the subject of the Registry, has everyone with a Registry ever read the chapter on the 'Evolution Of The Registry' beginning on page 7?
Does everyone know there have been a total of six Registry printings dating back to 1973? The chapter on the Evolution Of The Registry will also be updated in the next book.

One portion of the update will be the expanded story of how Howard Pardee discovered that Ford's archives had records on Shelbys and Cobras. He visited them a couple of years in a row, between Xmas and New Years when he was back home in Ohio. He made an appointment (anyone can do that but it's mostly writers and researchers). Everything is inventoried and catalogued. There are literally millions of documents stored in the building in which Model Ts were originally made. It covers one square block. They use golf carts to get around, and there are multiple floors. Howard called and set up an appointment. They had a pallet of boxes waiting for him when he got there at 8 am. They were in a room with a desk, chair and a copier. He could copy whatever he wanted but the originals could not leave the room. Howard stayed there all day, until 5 pm when they closed. He said there were more documents than he could look at, much less copy one page at a time. He was overwhelmed. He copied what he could (anything with a serial number on
it) in the first few boxes. There wasn't time to do much else.

Evidently every year they go through the documents that have been there for 10 years and review whether they want to keep them another 10 years or trash them. The archivist was schooled as a librarian and she realized the value of these documents if only she could find the right person. A guy writing a book on 1940's Jeeps discovered a pallet of boxes which were mis-identified. They were records from Shelby from 1963-1967. When this was discovered it was decided to toss them out. But instead of doing that she called Howard (whom she happened to remember from his previous visits). She asked him if he wanted them. The terms were that they were not for sale but he could not divulge where and how he got them (because they did not want a mob of others hounding them for discarded documents). He had to pick them up on the loading dock on a certain day.

Howard flew to Detroit where he was met at the airport by David Eber who was living there. He had an enclosed trailer. They went to the archive center and loaded the 24' trailer with about 60 boxes of documents and drove back to Howard's place in Waterford. It was in the winter.

The registrars were invited to his garage where everyone dug into the boxes, literally thousands of pages, and separated it all into stacks by car- Cobras, and various years Shelbys. Anything that had a serial # on it. The registrars took their stacks home, made copies, and eventually returned the originals (most were copies themselves) to Howard.

[Mark IV]

A-SNAKE,
Interesting.

BTW, Could you pick a font that is easier to read? And perhaps a little less _ _ _? That one gets very pixalated when shown on less than a 42" screen.

Rick
(using the good, old, regular font to post)

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

A-SNAKE,
Interesting.

BTW, Could you pick a font that is easier to read? And perhaps a little less _ _ _? That one gets very pixalated when shown on less than a 42" screen.

Rick
(using the good, old, regular font to post)

Rick,
You're right, that font doesn't work well on a long post.

[Jamo]

Looked a might light in the ass too.

[cobraviper_99]

I must admit to being more than perplexed about this ongoing philosophical quagmire. Somehow, the desirability, aura, and heritage of Shelby automobiles are being downgraded by some because of the actions of the man whose name the cars bear. None of us have to agree with Shelby and we all have the inalienable right to base our opinions of him on what we read and hear--although I will say it's not 1962 anymore and the way business is conducted in the corporate world today bears little resemblance to the way many of the rules were drawn four decades ago. You can love him, hate him, or decide to abandon your loyalty to all things Blue Oval. At the end of the day, you have to go with your gut.

But as a life-long Shelby enthusiast, and someone who works in the automotive media--primarily network television--I find it a bit baffling that there are connections being made between the morality/ethics of Carroll Shelby and the attraction and affection being directed to his cars. "He's a money-grabbing SOB and so I'll never buy one of his cars" is a concept that seems to be gathering some real momentum. I'm not the brightest guy in the world but I fail to see any of this trickle-down attitude creating similar debates among any other collector-level automobile enthusiasts in the world.

Enzo Ferrari was a tyrannical, dictatorial, self-involved despot who felt that the lives of his drivers were secondary to the pursuit of winning. Creating intra-team rivalries to motivate his drivers to battle not only their opponents but each other was a contributing factor to a host of his racers driving beyond their skills. The loss of a Ferrari team driver was usually little more than a minor inconvenience to him and his lust for winning, as it has been described in any number of his biographies, diminished his humanity and compassion for those who worked for him. Yet, I have never heard a Ferrari owner or enthusiast connect his cold, calculating morality with how they feel about his cars, or whether they would care to own one or not.

John Z. Delorean was a selfish, power-tripping Yuppie who brought the Pontiac GTO, and later, the ill-fated Delorean, to life. In his megomaniacal blindness, he justified his fraudulent money laundering, fleecing of the Irish government, and eventual drug-dealing activities by convincing himself it was the only way to keep his gambit alive. Talk about screwing people! And not just those who forged flimsy deals with him behind closed doors. More than a few customers of the Delorean never received delivery of their cars and/or never received their money back when the Delorean "dynasty" collapsed. Does anyone ever recall his immoral and illegal misadventures when extolling the virtues of the GTO or the sentimental value of the Delorean? How many people have sworn off ownership of a GTO because of Delorean's well-documented misdeeds? I've yet to meet one.

Malcolm Bricklin floated all kinds of shifty financial boondoggles to get his "revolutionary" sports car built, and once the abomination was produced, the lack of build quality, non-existent customer service, and laundry list of mechanical and electrical disasters forced him to run for his life. His laughable venture to bring the Yugo to this country resulted in millions of dollars lost for investors and one of automotive history's most notorious failures. While Bricklins have little collector value (How many have actually survived?), the conversations I've heard about his deplorable sports cars rarely if ever segue into a discussion about his shady business tactics.

Read the history of Mercedes-Benz and you can't avoid the countless names and accounts of top-level M-B executives and their ilk enthusiastically throwing their support and sympathies toward the Nazi hysteria which swept through the region in the 1930's and '40's. Going into deeper detail isn't necessary since we all know the story--at least the parts of it which have come to light since WW II. There are still American veterans of the war who refuse to buy German-built cars to this day, and yet, when was the last time we voiced any moral indignation at Mercedes ownership or undermined the idea of owning a Benz because of the unspeakable genocide from 60 years ago which, although not directly committed by those in charge at M-B, certainly wasn't vehemently protested by them either.

Carroll Shelby gets taken to task for business decisions which are viewed as greedy, unethical, and self-aggrandizing, and now, there are those who are jumping ship as if we've suddenly discovered he's really not the Pope. Like I say, I'm perplexed.

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by cobraviper_99

Carroll Shelby gets taken to task for business decisions which are viewed as greedy, unethical, and self-aggrandizing, and now, there are those who are jumping ship as if we've suddenly discovered he's really not the Pope. Like I say, I'm perplexed.

I can only speak for myself here, but my GUESS would be that the difference is that all that other stuff happend at the time, and not 40 years later. Everyone knew what Shelby DID 40 years ago, and didn't care. But he's STILL in control, still making decisions, still making cars, and still involved with what happens to those cars and their owners NOW.

[computerworks]

No need to be perplexed at all/ Let me help...

Originally Posted by cobraviper_99

Enzo Ferrari was a tyrannical, dictatorial, self-involved despot...

John Z. Delorean was a selfish, power-tripping Yuppie...

Malcolm Bricklin floated all kinds of shifty financial boondoggles...

...top-level M-B executives...sympathies toward the Nazi hysteria...

...and Carroll Shelby was a car guy from the get go...a world-class racer with a career cut short...who is immortalized in a perfect example of the American dream...building his own breed of race car and showing the world what could be done here.

And then didn't fade from fame and disappear... after decades, he stayed with his fans and basked in the adulation.

Enzo, John Z., Malcomb or the MB SS never sat in a car with me to shoot the sh!t, pose for some pics or sign my dash.

Carroll did.

It's just the hard kick in the teeth recently seems to hurt more than anything.
We thought he was different.

You network guys ought to know that.

[Excaliber]

In all the examples you sighted above, cobraviper, no doubt there were many people who at the time of battle DID in fact abandon the car in question. Out of disgust for the 'man'. As it should be, it sends a message, heros are hard to come by. Interesting group of people to associate Shelby with I might add, fitting, very fitting. The cars survive, the people associated with the cars remain tarnished to varying degrees. Shelby fits well within that group, on a moral and a car building level. I'm not perplexed at all, it's just Shelby history repeating itself.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by computerworks

No need to be perplexed at all/ Let me help...



...and Carroll Shelby was a car guy from the get go...a world-class racer with a career cut short...who is immortalized in a perfect example of the American dream...building his own breed of race car and showing the world what could be done here.

And then didn't fade from fame and disappear... after decades, he stayed with his fans and basked in the adulation.

Enzo, John Z., Malcomb or the MB SS never sat in a car with me to shoot the sh!t, pose for some pics or sign my dash.

Carroll did.

It's just the hard kick in the teeth recently seems to hurt more than anything.
We thought he was different.

You network guys ought to know that.

Well said Ron, very well said.

Bill S.

[cobraviper_99]

My examples are based on the premise that devious morality and unethical business practices have been going on for a long time in the automotive realm, but this is the first time in my memory that members of an enthusiast group have lost affinity for certain vehicles because of those behaviors. The argument isn't based on "who's a car guy and who isn't." Incidentally, Ferrari was a "car guy" and actually raced before going into manufaturing. Delorean was a "car guy" who had an engineering background and owned quite a collection of expensive automobiles before the the bottom fell out. People are drawing a straight line between the car and its creator and history is burdened with instances where car-building scumbags have victimized others, but nobody has lost interest or infatuation with their vehicles.

As to whether interest in the automobiles in question became less desirable once the misdeeds of their creators became public, I'm not aware of it. We know the stat sheet on Ferraris; GTO's have never suffered from John Z's felony conviction while Deloreans have never been "must-haves" due to their wretchedness; ditto with the Bricklin. I'm doubtful that Mercedes has seen any substantial backlash from their WWII loyalties to the Reich--past or present.

I also have worshipped the Golden Age of Shelby as much as anyone and I'm not here to declare Shelby innocent of all allegations, in fact, that's not the issue. I have met, interviewed, and produced programming on Shelby on numerous occasions over the years and have always found him to be a cagey, perceptive, outspoken entrepeneur who has outlived many of his adversaries. But an angel he isn't, and he might be the first one to admit it. Having drawn certain images of him, I can understand how shooting the sh!t, getting a photo, or getting something signed will definitely create a connection between Shelby and his disciples, and that anything which sullies that image would be a hard hit to take.

And network guys know all that because we see it happen a lot.

[Jamo]

cobraviper 99

I don't think your comparisons are valid, and you fail to give weight to the situations which have occurred over the past several years regarding lawsuits, production issues and broken promises...all as a result of marketing the personality rather than the product.

Mr. Ferrari had a monopoly on building Ferraris. Delorean wasn't trying to make new GTOs.

Perhaps Shelby is a distinct model that doesn't fit into a pigeon hole.

Perhaps he is indeed one of a kind. Maybe that is a good thing.

[cobraviper_99]

Let's not overcomplicate my premise. It's not a question of what Shelby has done recently, the disposition of his lawsuits, what Delorean or Ferrari were in the business of creating or whether or not any of the above men were more or less reprehensible than CS. My entire observation is simply this: The disapproval of whatever Shelby has been involved in legally, financially, and professionally in recent years has led to former devotees of his automobiles losing much of their ardor for the cars he manufactured/manufactures. Many former automobile figureheads in the past haven't passed the Moral-Ethical Sniff Test with flying colors (Henry Ford was an admitted anti-Semite) but the image and desirability of their cars haven't suffered among enthusiasts or in the marketplace.

I"ll let others decide if Shelby's rap sheet compares with the other examples I've used. Some would argue that he has a long way to go to deserve the kind of vitriol his predecessors have earned. Others would (and have) already issued a guilty verdict in Shelby vs Everyone Who Used To Like the Guy. For me, I find that quite a fascinating contrast.

[Jamo]

Well, your premise is your own.

I'm not sure anyone has expressed any loss of love for the damn little basturd cars...in fact, most folks indicate exactly the opposite. If you're talking about his branded little basturds, then your premise does indeed fail to take into account some of the things I mentioned...simply because folks don't like paying money and waiting until he!! freezes over, they damn near die or get taken with subcontractors flaking out. He has competition, and folks are aware of their alternatives...

And really, just WTF cars are you talking about? The originals certainly aren't losing value, the new ones seem to be selling ok due to new management (though some dealers are still snake-oil salesmen when it comes to meeting committments), and their resale seems to be holding in the marketplace. You assume the cars have suffered...where did you get that from?

In fact...just WTF are you talking about?

Is this some later stage of CSXR angst?

[Excaliber]

So, Cobraviper, who do you support in the 'hostile take over' of the SAAC name? Oh maybe wise man that you are, it's best not to take sides? Perfectly understandable.

For me this isn't about the cars (long term) or the people (Cobra owners are a great bunch), it's about the 'man' and his current business goals (crush SAAC). Of all groups, the very one who has been a key ally of his over the years.

[Cobrabill]

Cobraviper-carefull how much credit you give JZD.When he called down to engineering to see if the GTO"idea" could be done,the reply was:"when do you want to drive it"?It seems they already built the GTO before JZD ran the idea past them.Delorean surrounded himself with very talented people:Knudsen,Estes,Wangers,Roberts(Fireball).His talent lay in knowing how to bull$hit the 14th floor.Plus he was departed over 10 years from Pontiac before any of his "shennigans".The GTO reference is rediculous.

Back to topic:any Shelby owner(Cobra or Mustang),who thinks that giving CS sole ownership of all SAACs paperwork/records(and thus their hardwork)is a good idea,is out of their phucking minds.

[cobraviper_99]

Why is the vibe here getting so hostile?


"In fact...just WTF are you talking about?""
"Is this some later stage of CSXR angst?"

Isn't this the forum that implores its users to show "Respect, respect, respect"? What was it which I posted that was at all disrespectful to anyone, and yet I get the "CSXR angst" slam?

Let the record show that strictly because my bio shows I own a CSX, that information somehow gets pulled into the conversation as if the mere ownership of that car makes me some kind of shill for Shelby. I've repeatedly stated he may be the inveterate scoundrel so many people accuse him of being, but his guilt or innocence wasn't the crux of my comments. I'll try to connect the dots for you one more time.

Post No. 499 from C5HM is an impassioned denouncement of not only Shelby but Ford as well. He states he'll never purchase another product from either entity and the responses from subsequent posters are generally supportive of his rage. I'm not going to tell him he's not entitled to feel that way and I'm certainly not going to protest his sentiments. What I'm questioning is why haven't we seen that same kind of disassociation with other automobiles which were conceived, built, manufactured, promoted, and/or connected to men of dubious business practices and allegedly unethical conduct? I offered examples which I'll adamantly stand by.

Also, Cobrabill, the book "Grand Delusions" by Hillel Levin is a remarkably detailed account of the John Delorean debacle. It documents clearly that the idea for the GTO was first discussed by Delorean, Pete Estes, and Bill Collins while visiting a GM proving ground to see the new-for-1964 Tempest. Delorean would play the pivotal role in the styling and engineering of the GTO, and it was his joint efforts with Jim Wangers that resulted in the spectacular advertising campaign which launched the car to immediate success. The fact that Delorean's folly with his own sports car occurred years later doesn't disqualify the reality that he is yet another automotive icon who fell from grace, was convicted of serious improprieties, and cars which he is most identified with remain popular without the odor of his malfeasance.

Finally, I have never said that the "values" of any Shelby vehicles have been placed in jeopardy. I stated clearly that there are people who have opted to abandon their deep enthusiasm for the Shelby nameplate because of their disapproval of the way he has been conducting his professional affairs. As I've already professed, the builder's character--or lack thereof--isn't a part of the pricing dynamic in the collector arena.

I didn't come here to start a fight, only to point out what I consider to be an intriguing phenomenon. If owning a CSX makes me fair game for a ***** slap, can someone tell me what happened to the "Respect, respect, respect" concept?
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