rumor control--has SAAC lost its use of Shelby name?

[hwoods6617]

Lots of great points made in this thread and I probably missed some of the best ones as I skipped from page nine to here. As a kid and car enthuasist, I lusted for a Cobra, but never got close, Also wanted a Pantera. Had a 427 65 Ford Galaxie and a 71 Maverick with a 427 in it--who do I owe a royalty fee for that one? The Cobra is a great car, but just an adult go cart. According to the logic of CS and his lawyers, anyone who does an engine swap on any vehicle should be paying a royalty fee to someone, the first guy to drop a flat head V-8 into a old jalopy. Maybe I should try to claim the naming rights to that first hot rod and file suit against everyone who has ever built a fun car to own and drive. all the CS BS takes a lot of the fun out of the auto enthuasist play ground. I think it was Redspirit who pointed out the obvious, that Carrol did not design the AC cars, he did not design the Ford built engines and transmissions. He just told someone to drop a 427 into an English built car. Now anyone who does the same owes him money? Not meant to offend, just MHO

[Jamo]

cobraviper99

Well then stop being so serious and try to have a sense a humor...

You get rather aggressive when folks disagree with your "premise." Just because you say it doesn't make it so. I happen to think it's invalid (and evidently so do others), especially since you now indicate that it relies on a few posts by some folks on this thread.

What is said in a forum of folks who are somewhat dedicated to the cars and the man is going to be quite a bit different than the general populace...again, as noted by others, something which someone involved in the media should be aware of.

And yes, the fact that you own a CSX and are writing about how you perceive folks to be transferring their anger to the car is extremely relevant and worthy of comment to explore where you are coming from. Other CSX owners (thankfully only a few) always seem to justify or defend their choice...or ask questions about why folks seem to take it out on the cars.

Same answer we always give Evan...it's not the cars. This thread has been about the actions being taken by an organization that the builder is closely associated with, hugely in conformity with past actions, against an organization that many feel kept the flame alive. Their is alot of emotion invloved in this particular situation. If folks say they wouldn't buy a car from someone because of such conduct, then it sounds like they feel that's how you respond in the marketplace.

I deal with boycotts against my clients because of labor disputes...so what the hell does a company's labor relations have to do with a bottle of wine? Why would someone decide not to see a movie because the actor takes a stand which is unpopular or because of uncivil conduct? Why did the Dixie Chicks have trouble selling their albums? That is indeed how marketplaces based upon perceptions and personalities work...they do not always conform to linear economic analysis.

It's a two-way street: You put your name on a badge and market it as value-added in order to gain a premium over the competition, then the value-added depends on the perception of the label.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by cobraviper_99

Why is the vibe here getting so hostile?

No hostility here.Just your GTO reference was out in left field.And the JZD reference is in the parking lot beyond the stadium.If Delorean ran GM today,in about 5 years,they'd be back on top.Conversly,if CS ran GM today,in 90 days they'd be insolvent and Toyota would own them in 2 years.
Your average auto exec would give his left nut to be able to put JZDs accomplishments at GM on their resume.The same can't be said of CS(Driving history is another issue)


Also, Cobrabill, the book "Grand Delusions" by Hillel Levin is a remarkably detailed account of the John Delorean debacle. It documents clearly that the idea for the GTO was first discussed by Delorean, Pete Estes, and Bill Collins while visiting a GM proving ground to see the new-for-1964 Tempest. Delorean would play the pivotal role in the styling and engineering of the GTO, and it was his joint efforts with Jim Wangers that resulted in the spectacular advertising campaign which launched the car to immediate success. The fact that Delorean's folly with his own sports car occurred years later doesn't disqualify the reality that he is yet another automotive icon who fell from grace, was convicted of serious improprieties, and cars which he is most identified with remain popular without the odor of his malfeasance.

JZD never dis-connected himself from a product and then 25 years later started yelling"Do over,do over"like a 6 year old at recess.
JZD-never tried to extort money from people
JZD never had a lawyer on speed dial

I've met McKellar and know Arnie Beswick & Jim Wangers.Trust me,i know what went on in the early days.
I'm not here for a fight neither.Just calling you on your Delorean comparison.

Digression concluded

[CHANMADD]

I certainly do not see myself "fire selling" my car any time soon.

[bret a ewing]

Cobraviper,

Why CS and ultimately Ford?

Vicarious responsibility.

[TerrysSPF]

Your post(s) make for good reading, cobraviper, but I don't see the connections that you are trying to make. -Apples and oranges, IMO.

Now, had Delorean come out a few years ago and said that he found several 64 Tempest bodies in a warehouse and he was going to turn them into GTO's and sell them for a half-million bucks each,..........I think you would have seen the current GTO owners raising a little hell.

[cobraviper_99]

Reasonable men can disagree reasonably. I originally began this thread with an observation and some personal opinions. Some of the responses have been thoughtful and measured. One or two, I felt were not. So be it.

Everyone has their own agenda here and I think it's painfully obvious how my premise has been bloviated by some to enhance their personal biases.

Cobrabill, I'm sure you feel secure in your understanding of the origins of the GTO and I respectfully accept that. But over the course of my 25-year career in automotive television, I've personally spoken to and interviewed a host of people directly involved in the GTO story. Yes, Jim Wangers and I have had more than a few conversations when I wrote and produced "Wild About Wheels" for the Discovery Channel in 1992-93. I covered NHRA Drag Racing for ESPN for 12 years and have had many an informative conversation with Arnie Beswick. I was in the audience at his induction into the International Drag Racing Hall of Fame in Ocala, FL several years ago. I have also had many a conversation with Don Gay and his son, Don Gay Jr. from Texas, who also campaigned many drag racing GTO's for a long time. One of the fastest cars I ever owned was a 1967 GTO convertible that I bought for $250.00 in 1971.

This isn't intended to be an "I know more then you do" rave because the entire automotive hobby has a long tradition of bench racing and friendly debate. We're all wrong some of the time--perhaps more times than we realize. It's just that as an incurable motorhead, my profession has given me the privilege of meeting, speaking to, and becoming friends with a rather lengthy list of car guys who are many times more honest and candid privately than they are publicly.

Anonymity is a useful method of covering one's tracks. If you have a moment, you can go to www.ult-garage.com see where I'm coming from.

[bret a ewing]

Yup Bill,

I know and respect your resume. As a reference qualifier it has weight.

But the issue is, MANY here also have first hand dealings and history with CS.....for better or worse. So this becomes a personality vote, with real examples for validating said vote.

So, of course you are entitled to your own "opinion", but realize that is all it is.

Edit for grammer

[cobraviper_99]

Thanks, Brent. I think what has happened in the course of this thread is that somehow my position has been misconstrued. All I came with was an opinion. I found it interesting that in the history of unscrupulous automotive front men ( and there have been many), their tainted reputations and in some instances felonious business practices failed to diminish the loyalty and enthusiasm of those who were drawn to their cars. Is that so convoluted a scenario?

If you were to rifle back through the innumerable posts on this board that address such topics as "What replica should I build/buy?", or the dreaded "Is a Continuation Cobra a REAL Cobra?", you'll find many posts in which Cobra enthusiasts have an emerging reluctance to purchase a New Generation Shelby because of recent events pertaining to Shelby's lawsuits, business relationships, the SAAC divorce, etc. But I hasten to add: I'm not painting this picture with too fine a brush. I'm not making head-to-head comparisons between Shelby, Ferrari, Delorean, Bricklin, M-B. etc. At the risk of redundancy, I direct your attention to the first paragraph of this post.

What Shelby did, didn't do, when he did or didn't do it, what his motivations were--sincere or evil--who were his accomplices or victims, how crooked were his intentions, was he more culpable than Delorean, Ferrari, Bricklin, etc. or just playing by the New Rules of Business are all arguments that would take a long time to unravel. "Shelby did this but Delorean never did that....." takes us far afield from the simple idea that the disapproval within the Cobra community of what is transpiring in the corporate offices of Shelby Automobiles is affecting the desire for his cars within that community. I have yet to see that kind of ripple effect within other enthusiast groups which celebrate automobiles that had been manufactured by zealous entrepeneurs who were morally or ethically challenged.

That's the best I can do.

[Trevor Legate]

Slightly off-topic and on a point of order - Mr.DeLorean stole £80 million (160,000,000 of your greenback dollars) from the British public, not the Irish, as his 'factory' was based in Northern Ireland, not the Republic of. So he stole money from me. Do I forgive that thief? Errr - no. Hope he's warm where he's spending (hopefully) eternity.

[Excaliber]

I've had a bunch of interesting cars over the years, been a member of a few clubs. None have even come close to the PASSION I have seen with Cobra owners. Especially true with THIS group of owners is how they like to DRIVE their cars, and drive them hard. If there was ever a 'Type A personality' car club, it's a Cobra Club!

For the most part, outspoken, independant and brash, and it is done with 'respect'. The 'respect' thread Brent posted is fitting all right, but were no where near what he was talking about in that thread. Were pretty much just par for the course as far as attitude goes on this thread.

I have no doubt, by the way, when it 'hit the fan' with folks like DeLorean and others there were many potential buyers that at the time, walked away or even sold their car.

[Jamo]

cobraviper99

Looks like your premise is not finding favor. But that's fine...everyone has a different opinion around here.

Folks can read your post, and you've restated it several times...so don't blame the fact folks disagree with you on someone else's posted opinion.

[cobraviper_99]

I will respectfully submit that I didn't expect a tidal wave of agreement, and certainly wasn't seeking it. I'm in the media. The first thing that we learn is that there's no such thing as 100% agreement on anything. I will say that your crowd estimates are a bit conservative. I've had this conversation with other enthusiasts at various gatherings ever since the Shelby turmoil began hitting the street and many I have spoken to not only understood my premise but have concurred with it.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Well you know, this reminds me of a couple that for the sake of appearances seems to be happily married. But you don't know what's going on behind closed doors and the next thing you know SAI and SAAC are getting divorced and SAI is engaged to the future young trophy bride TeamShelby...

And not only that, but it's probably going to be a messy divorce. I think Amy can confirm that SAI and SAAC are in litigation right now.

Yes moderators, I realize who I'm quoting...

But to take the analogy a bit further, if you are both a long time Shelby fan and a long time SAAC member, you might consider yourself a child of that 33 year marriage. And when the messy divorce comes along, some of the children might get fed up with one of the parents and want to have nothing to do that parent anymore. As far as I know most children don't disown their parent(s) over a divorce. But you should expect some anger from the children. And some of that anger might have to do with who gets what afterward and where did the pre-nuptial agreement come from anyway.

And perhaps some of the children don't really need to hear about how the Dolorean or Bricklin divorces turned out, because those stories really won't help with the emotions at hand.

Seriously though most of the 5000 or so SAAC members are probably insulted by this, because it is not just the SAAC board of directors that Shelby is telling to get lost. It seems like he wants us all to dump the club that the thousands of us built in his honor to join the new club he is having built in his own honor.

[Jamo]

Trev...you just can't trust folks with perfect hair.

[Jamo]

cv99

Well, maybe the dumbasses around here just know too much.

I'm in law...first thing we learn is that if our argument doesn't catch on, try another.

[Jamo]

BTW...enjoyed the Garlits book.

[RACER X #99]

Bill Stephens,
I still enjoy the Video you made at SAAC Watkins Glen back in 93. If I can remember where it is I will have another look tonight.

[Blue66]

Originally Posted by Jamo

BTW...enjoyed the Garlits book.

I believe this will be a book by the time it's done

[RACER X #99]

Originally Posted by Jamo

I'm in law...first thing we learn is that if our argument doesn't catch on, try another.

Obviously some others in law would disagree with you.