Feedback on PS Engineering 2 Piece Wheels

[Cobra Pack]

I have a Kirkham '63 289 Comp Car replica and am interested in purchasing Kidney Bean wheels for it. PS engineering is the only company offering 15" 6 pin knock-off wheels. In talking to Phil Schimdt, I would need to purchase their welded 2 piece wheels to get workable front and rear offsets (they only offer the 1 piece wheels in 6.5" wide despite what their catalog says. They can add an inch to the rear of the wheel to make them 7.5" but that doesn't do me a lot of good since the wheels won't sit right). The original wheels were 6" front and 7" rears. While you do sacrifice some of the original looks with the 2 piece wheels, my Trigo FIA wheels are not accurate FIA wheels either.

With this background, I am wondering if anyone has had issues with 2 piece PS wheels (rim is welded to the center section). I am mainly concerned with the wheels separating.

Thanks

Mike

[Lew Ledyard]

Speak with Ted Wayman of M&A Castings for another option.

http://macastings.com/

[csx700?]

i've tried speaking with m&a castings about "fia" wheels. i was told fran kress owns the rights to the pattern and that they can not sell them !

[Fred Z]

I have phil's wheels......and they are excellent! i think you can find a post somewhere here, discussing different types of manufactureres........but PSE is definitely.........top quality and good looking.
hope that helps.
fred z

[What'saCobra?]

If M&A will not sell the wheels due to a restraint of trade, they must remove them from their catalogue at least. They are also perhaps open to potentially serious charges regarding restraint of trade and misleading advertizing. Further, the ultimate designs, trade dress, copyrights and nomenclatures may not be Kress'.

They are just begging someone to begin fabricating wheels offshore. This is similar to the baloney that Halibrand went through in part, rather than just continue to cast nice wheels and sell them to all comers. Are they too cheap to pay for their own molds and patterns? What business are they in, for pete's sake? Don't they like making wheels? That was the impression i got visiting Halibrand not all that many years ago.

Why would M&A want to engender ill-will by restraining the purchase of their advertized wheels?

Are we simply mis-informed?

[Cobra Pack]

I too ran into this issue with M&A. They had a vendor stand at the vintage races at Road America last summer. Their FIA wheels are absolutely gorgeous. They are making Kidney Bean wheels for Fran Kress as well. Fran quoted me $6000 for a single set and said he would only go as low as $4500 if I bought multiple sets. This pricing is downright ridiculous. This is in the price range of genuine mag kidney bean wheels from the 60's. Unfortunately, the genies don't fit over my Comp Girling Brakes.

PS's aluminum FIA wheels are very nice. However they are one piece. I am specifically wondering if people have experience with their 2 piece wheels.

[xracerbob]

I'm probably one of the very few that have been to M&A's facility in Pinconning. Wheels are a sideline for them. I would love to see them get into larger production runs of the 7.5" and 9.5" S/C style wheels, but I think someone will need to step up and order a fairly significant number to get the price in the reasonable area.

[csx700?]

i was informed by m&a that if i wanted a particular wheel (meaning the "fia" i inquired about) it would cost me $8000.00 to make a mold to start production, on a part that is already being produced by them. i'll have to agree with what'sacobra, i don't believe that kress owns the patent on these wheels? yes he is also trying to do the kidney beans as well...........kress also quoted me $4500.00 for a set of wheels!!

[Cobra Pack]

I have spared no expense on my car, but I have drawn a line in the sand and anything over $3000 for a set of wheels is flat out too expensive to put on a replica or continuation car (for me) which is why I am not pursing plan B which is the 2 piece aluminum Kidneys which are $1450 a set. I may just live with my FIA's. I am not sure I can get over the hump of accepting risks associated with 2 piece welded wheels.

[What'saCobra?]

Looks like we are not ill-informed, at least about the availability and price.

Can Kress withstand the ill-will regarding his usurious pricing on "his" wheels? Won't all this agro trickle down or accross into his regular line of business? After all, while he is able to charge what he wishes, he doesn't actually do the work with his hand-file.

Do they know that Mag can be forged? Alternatives can be found and the energy for the search is often gleaned from the poor attitude and performance of a stubborn supplier.

Perhaps with that degenerative attitude they should be stiffed and actively ignored on all their lines of business.

To think that i used to pay $50 each for Halibrands and thought it highway robbery. Note, however, that H is nearly out of business several times after a fabulous and famous history of providing wheels to nearly every serious professional race team in N. America at one time.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by What'saCobra?

If M&A will not sell the wheels due to a restraint of trade, they must remove them from their catalogue at least. They are also perhaps open to potentially serious charges regarding restraint of trade and misleading advertizing.

I don't think it is that sinister. M&A is wholesale only...no onesy sales (err....foursy?)...but, rather job lots.

Their website shows capability, not catalog, items.

[What'saCobra?]

Funny that. i clicked "products" and came up with only mag wheels and samples of same. For instance, COBRA FIA and GT40 MARK II. Job lots is not mentioned, but i am sure you are correct.

Rather misleading at the least. i don't pass off that kind of mis-direction very lightly. Not impressive, no matter what quality.

If they are a custom-casting wholesale facility only, they should so state. And, they should direct retail purchasers to the retailers of the designs. Since they do not do that, it would seem to me they well know the designs may be at least potentially propriatary to 3rd parties other than their customer's.

The bigger gripe % then might be towards Kress' pricing and inventory policies on designs very important to the public... Nobody can control his margins more than himself. It is a free country, though, and the designs will not be worth much if another caster/forger can be found in China, Israel, or Russia.

Chinese Mag is much cheaper than Alcoa & Magcorp, who essentially control most of US mag in past years. Australia is becoming a globally important producer of mag alloy also and they have die casting techniques and local auto enthusiasts are available to help.

i would think an initial order would be for no less than 25 sets (100 wheels), with original offsets and sizes for each of both the 289's (FIA) and the 427's. Throw in some Kidneys for the kids and the total might be 600 wheels. i would anticipate a mfg. cost of perhaps $1500 per set of 4 FOB. With transportation and modest markup, $3000 per set might be quite possible.

Certainly not $6K.

i would imagine with modern facilities and modern alloys, the design and safety margins could be improved, also. Higher stiffness, better ductility for forming, less voiding, less corrosion, better surface finishing, etc all might be possible.

Of course, if Kress was more rational and forthcoming, all this might not be necessary, y'know?

[John McMahon]

Many, many wheels in the industry are two and three piece units.

I had a set of Phil's FIA wheels on my Cobra and had no problems whatsoever.

Phils' work is top notch, I don't think you need to worry about wheels separating. He is an artist and takes his time in completing these wheels in batches. I thought about getting a econd set of Kidney Beans myself. But since I sold the car, did not.

I would not think twice about ordering from him, his prices are reasonable too.

[venum14]

PSE wheels (Phil) will do any thing to help you out. I have a set of his 17" wheels on my car that are now 14 years old. The old magnum 500's and other wheels are done this way in high production.

Integrity-He heats up the the outer ring and inserts the center (shrink fit). The wheel then gets 360 degree weld to join the two pieces.

Recently I saw a write up about his wheels and process, try doing a Google search. BTW I am getting to ready to order another set for track use.

Before PSE I tried HRE wheels and got burned almost $300.

Good luck!

[Lew Ledyard]

I spoke with Ted at M&A regarding S/C wheels. The patterns would cost $7500 each (f & r). To cast and machine each wheel, it would be about $750 per wheel after that.

[What'saCobra?]

Did Ted mention the minimum number of wheels per pattern that would fit that $750 per wheel cost or a rate variance for 4, 8, 16, 32 or some other sequence/quantity for a run?

The per wheel charge isn't that bad at all, given that the quantity isn't awfully high for a run. It would likely be lower with a large run.

But, the pattern cost is high and they usually are. An additional $75 per wheel charge would off-set the pattern cost at x100 of each frt and rear. Still not awful unit price, but it presumes a lot purchase of x100 each size.

It needs to then be determined if x100 would require pattern repairs back to proper condition, replacement or they can produce more than x100 and be fine and dandy.

For a lot quantity example: to have Pirelli Tire in Italy fabricate 15" P7's to fit the COB, they wanted a minimum of 500 tires (250 each size) as of a few years ago. We didn't do it, because we had advance knowledge of the new AVON on its way. Having raced on AVON's for quite a few years, i would likely select them over the Pirelli, unless a study would prove differently. So far, having raced and streeted on both, i would select the AVON's. But, i have not run on the most modern Pirelli compounds in over 7 years, so things may have changed.

[Lew Ledyard]

The $7500 per pattern and $750 per wheel was the flat cost regardless of the number ordered. The discount attributable to volume really only affects how the pattern cost can be amortized. One set of wheels is $18,000. $15,000 ($7,500 X 2) + $3,000 ($750 X 4). At 20 sets of wheels, the $15,000 can be amortized over all 20 sets, so the total cost would be more like $3750 per set of 4.

[xracerbob]

Sounds like a group purchase opportunity. Maybe the Kirkhams would buy the patterns, spread the cost out and have the chance to make a few bucks. It seems they don't have much going on these days .

[What'saCobra?]

i am reasonably certain that they are now aware of this potential deal or if not, will be soon. They would be the ideal retailer and we could be sure that their pattern designs would be both visually accurate and contain materially useful engineering improvements to fit the larger brakes, for instance.

i would order one set of each type, for sure.

It's not that they are too busy...

[Cobra Pack]

Since my thread is switching directions anyways, it is my understanding that Halibrand has mag 427 S/C wheels available right now. They have not been available for quite awhile except by special order.